This episode is with Stephen Dowse, Director of Rugby at Hong Kong Football Club. He opens up about nurturing talent across all levels, aligning multiple teams under the club's ethos, and cultivating a culture where elite and community players thrive side by side.
Authenticity and credibility lie at the heart of our conversation, as we dissect the evolution of coaching styles and the importance of trust in mentoring athletes. It's not just about managing teams but about guiding them through strategic planning and skill development, as well as embracing the personal growth that comes with the territory of coaching at the highest levels.
Closing out this episode, Stephen discusses the resilience and personal growth that come with the territory of sports coaching. The exchange underscores the significance of acknowledging our slip-ups, sourcing support from the right quarters, and honing strategies for self-improvement. Whether you're a die-hard rugby enthusiast or a novice to the game, this episode promises to enrich your understanding of the sport's inner workings and the profound impact of coaching and player development.
This episode is with Stephen Dowse, Director of Rugby at Hong Kong Football Club. He opens up about nurturing talent across all levels, aligning multiple teams under the club's ethos, and cultivating a culture where elite and community players thrive side by side.
Authenticity and credibility lie at the heart of our conversation, as we dissect the evolution of coaching styles and the importance of trust in mentoring athletes. It's not just about managing teams but about guiding them through strategic planning and skill development, as well as embracing the personal growth that comes with the territory of coaching at the highest levels.
Closing out this episode, Stephen discusses the resilience and personal growth that come with the territory of sports coaching. The exchange underscores the significance of acknowledging our slip-ups, sourcing support from the right quarters, and honing strategies for self-improvement. Whether you're a die-hard rugby enthusiast or a novice to the game, this episode promises to enrich your understanding of the sport's inner workings and the profound impact of coaching and player development.
Hello and welcome back to the when Coaching Goes Wrong podcast with me, craig Wilson, the contact coach On today's show. I'm joined by Stephen Douse. Stephen is the director of rugby at the prestigious and world famous Hong Kong football club. Stephen is a professional coach with over 10 years experience now and, a bit of a fun fact, I played mini rugby with Stephen at five years old, so it was really cool to go back and look over those memories but also learn from Stephen, learn from his journey and tap into his experiences, what he's lived and how he shares them with us so we can get better as coaches in our own environments. So why don't we get into it? Settle in and enjoy the show, stephen. Thanks for joining me, no problem, good to be here, mate. So tell me where you are now. What are you up to?
Speaker 2:So currently Hong Kong football club. So really fortunate to be here. As director of rugby Started about a year and a half ago, so yeah, we're just in our second season at the minute. Yeah, it's a really good place to be. So, yeah, very fortunate to be here and working at the football club.
Speaker 1:The director of rugby Hong Kong football club. I know a little bit about it For those who haven't been to Hong Kong. What's the rugby scene like in general in Hong Kong, and tell us a little bit more about life at football club. What's a day to day tasks, as it were, for the director at football?
Speaker 2:club. Yeah, I mean like the rugby scene in Hong Kong is very vibrant. Obviously, everyone knows the Hong Kong 7s, which is the big tournament that takes place here every year. There's also we host the Hong Kong football club 10s, which is another tournament that a lot of international teams come to, and then there's a massive youth participation and senior rugby as well. So it's a really vibrant scene in Hong Kong. You've got a good melting pot of expats and locals that are all playing, which gives it a really kind of unique flavour, I guess. And again, in terms of the rugby played, because you've got that Southern Hemisphere, northern Hemisphere influence, you know, as I said, it's a really good melting pot for the style of rugby. So it's a pretty unique place, really fortunate to be here.
Speaker 2:And then my role at football club is to basically oversee the section. So we're one of a number of sections in what is a very large private sports club, private members club. Rugby is probably the biggest, I think, and so for me it's overseeing our senior side. So we've got six men's teams, two women's teams and then the youth section as well, which is made up of about a thousand members as well. So yeah, it's pretty large and it keeps you on your toes, but it's really good. Again, within that, there's obviously the players, there's the coaches, the other support staff, my relationship with the club as well, to make sure we're working as part of that ecosystem. The relationship with the Hong Kong-China rugby union as well, as we kind of work in with them on leagues and grand champs and things like that. So, yeah, it's a very varied role, but something that's deeply passionate about and, as I said, it's a real privilege to be in this position.
Speaker 1:Mate. So six teams, two women's teams. There's not many clubs in the world that can boast six different grades of rugby. So how does it differ from your top team down to just looking at the men's side here, and probably somewhat similar on the women's side. How does that? How do you manage all six teams, or the coaches within the six teams, so you're somewhat aligned, but just trying to achieve the goals of each separate team?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we again, the aim of the club as a whole, so the whole sports club, is to be the number one sports club in Asia, and I always kind of think, reflect on that and like, well, what does that look like? And within the rugby section, what does that look like? And I think for us it's being able to offer the right level of rugby and level of coaching and support to every player that wants it and needs it. So you have, you know, you go from elite performance players all the way down to participation and, pardon, my role is making sure that we've got the right people coaching and managing at each of those levels so they understand, you know, what do the players need, what do the players want, and then also, I guess, helping the players recognise that you know you're at this level, this is what you can expect, and that's different for everyone.
Speaker 2:But yeah, the interconnectedness, I guess, of the coaches and managers is also a really big thing because as players move up and down the different grades, they need to have rationales of you know why I'm in a certain team and we have to work together on that because, as you can imagine, it's a bit of a bit of a puzzle Thursday night. Suddenly the top team needs, you know, another centre, which means everyone has to bump up. And how do we support each grade so that you know there's there's support among that and also a good culture as a section, but then also within each of the teams as well, because that that unique identity is really really important for each of those teams. So we don't want to mess around with that too much. But, as I say, the kind of club has to come first in many regards.
Speaker 1:That's brilliant. So where you're at now. So what late 30s director rugby over in Hong Kong? Talk us how you got through that route. So how did you get into coaching and what was that like back in those early days?
Speaker 2:I guess, like many people, kind of got into coaching as I was coming towards the end of the playing. I was always interested in coaching and kind of leadership stuff whilst playing and it kind of graduated from there really, so went through university or, sorry, stepped back a bit playing it. As a youngster I think we had a again a mutual coach, gupta Dave Taborham Okumarasi, who was a fantastic coach, not necessarily because of you know the X's and O's and everything that he knew, but just again because of that culture that he built and the environment that he built. And so I think in those initial years as 15, 16, you know, 17 year old, you kind of got the bug and you kind of saw what a good coach could look like again for that group of players at that time.
Speaker 2:And then, moving through, as I was kind of progressing in my playing, I was fortunate enough to go up to Leeds and play up there and Stuart Lancaster was the academy coach there for three or four years and again seeing his style of coaching and probably not realising it at the time, but he was quite ahead of his time in what he was doing and the influence taken from rugby league and the group that he was coaching and so that I guess I don't know, subconsciously, maybe always manifested in the back of my head.
Speaker 2:And then, as I say, as I kind of continued playing and travelling, the opportunity came to go out to Australia and play out there and with that, alongside the playing, I was coaching in a private school for six hours a day, six days a week, as a kind of 20, 22, 23 year old, and it was just fantastic doing that for two years. You know, you certainly learn a lot about your coaching and you have to, you know, grow and flex and in that environment, because you're just doing so much of it. So that was kind of how it came about. I guess quite an organic growth, but also something I was always interested in as well.
Speaker 1:Right. Going back to those earlier days, and you mentioned back at Oakham rugby club and Dave Taber, who you mentioned there. There's not many sessions now where you wrap a tray around someone's head in the scheme of building camaraderie, but, as you said back in, what would that be in the early 2000s? A bunch of Colts players and some pretty decent players in there as well.
Speaker 1:I can go back and remember just I felt really good in that environment and I enjoyed it and they encourage you to have a good time with your mates but also play pretty hard and go hard and just some of the team building stuff was absolutely brilliant. I don't think it's going to be probably coached nowadays, but like just the songs, the trips, the trays, it was just an amazing time. It's really cool that you mentioned that, because that did have a very, very fundamental part and why I actually enjoyed rugby, let alone when I go and coach it, and I try and achieve that now and then, obviously, moving on your rubbing shoulders with Stuart Lancaster, who's went on and done seriously good things in the world of rugby and particularly now at Rassan and yeah, it's just so. What have you kind of picked up from those two different? It's not all about X's and O's essentially right. So what have you picked up culturally from two of those different characters?
Speaker 2:As I say, I think it's about understanding where is your group of players at? Where are they at? What do they want to get from the game, from you know as a whole? What do they want to get in their training? Are they aspiring to be elite rugby players or are they here as a community club and we want to have the best, you know, most inclusive, fun environment that we can, and really being able to tailor your coaching towards that is really really important. So, yeah, I think it is definitely about having the right person in the right role and then with that you can, then you can then grow with that group as well, so you can start to push them.
Speaker 2:So, you know, looking back at OCam, it very much started as a yeah, community rugby team and it was about having fun, but then actually as the when we went from the first season to the second season, it's like, well, actually we've got, we've got the foundations of what we need now. So how do we build on that and make sure that we're not just having fun and but we're actually also winning games and progressing in that regard as well? So, yeah, I certainly think some of it is around context and and certainly around again, taking ideas from from different places and putting them into your, into your coaching. So that's something again I try and do and, as I say, out here, we're really fortunate because it's such a melding part of different, different coaches and the turnover of coaches that we have in Hong Kong. You're always rubbing shoulders and new people and you go on and see what they're doing and there's some, some fantastic coaches that have come through Hong Kong as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the Hong Kong is particularly. I can go back on the times I remember there between I8 and 15. And actually, when you look back on it from from the resources to the connections to everything that the Hong Kong rubber union had going on at the time it was just incredible. So, yeah, tell us. So you went from Australia and you you got over to to Hong Kong. Now what did coaching for you look like in Hong Kong?
Speaker 2:Initially for myself as a coach, it was working with a lot of the youth players, the academy players, and again starting at the bottom, really volunteering to coach at one of the local rugby clubs here and leaning, leaning back on on my experience I guess, from from being a young player as well and what was important there, as we've spoken about already, and then moving through and coaching with the national age great players and then getting a full-time role with the rugby union here and, as I say, coaching in the academy.
Speaker 2:So it was a progression again from community rugby through into into development I guess. And then as the rugby union grew as well, there was, you know, a chance to really kind of work in that performance and, as you know, at its height I guess there was a full elite rugby program here. You know, 40 or so full-time contracted guys in the 15s program, 20, 25 guys in the full-time sevens program. So my role was to coach the players and build the players both on and off the pitch so that they could go into those full-time programs. Really, Right.
Speaker 1:So talk to me your first session I don't know if you can remember or your first set of sessions, wherever it, wherever it was, you did it. What was it like? How did it go? How did you feel? So talk about those very early days of when you became Steve Daff, the coach.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess the first kind of most memorable ones were out in Australia coaching at Noss Grammar School, Again one of the prestigious kind of rugby schools out there, hotbed of rugby in the North Shore, very traditional again, Heartland of rugby, much like Oakham and Rutland and Leicester is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you'd turn up and you'd have got three, four different teams that you'd be coaching on that day going through over a six-hour period. And again, it might be one session is the under-14 F team where they're lucky if they can catch impassable, and then by the end of the day you might be with the under-16 A grade. So it was a really good opportunity to try different things. The good thing about having that scope of different teams that you're coaching is, again, to be honest, if you mucked up with the, as I say, the under-14s, they didn't know any better anyway. So you could really experiment and it really kind of challenged you as well because of the amount of coaching you were doing to be able to progress drills, to be able to regress drills if you needed to, and again with Schoolboy Rugby to think about, well, what are the key components of the game, what are the things that I really need to get across and how do I do that? As succinctly as possible, I guess.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and did those boys have to be there? Now, was there was an element of that, or was that a choice at that stage? Because that always throws a different context in it as well. Like, are they just here because their curriculum says they have to be here, or they choose to turn up and get after their work?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think some of them it was almost part of it was a PE class that was, you know, they could choose what sport they were doing, but they had to be in a certain class. And then after school it was, you know, they're chosen to be in the rugby teams that they wanted to be there, and again, at the younger level, whether it was they wanted to be there or their parents wanted them to be there, I'm not so sure sometimes. But yeah, it was a good blend. But on the whole, the kids were keen. But again, the great thing about kids is that they're also telling you if something's not very good. They're not shy and saying like what on earth are you talking about? Or you know what is this drill supposed to be? So, yeah, it's a really good opportunity to challenge yourself and also to take a bit of ownership, which was which is also very good.
Speaker 1:Now. So you've went from coaching high school kids or younger kids, where you are essentially the fountain of knowledge they look up to you. Now, how did that differ? Or was there any difficulties at all when you went on to coaching a professional environment, when the players are then perhaps better than you were as a player, or they know the game just as well, how did you, how did you manage that, working with players who are just operating at that much higher level, and how did you win those guys over with your own style of coaching? Or is there anything in there to dig a little bit deeper on?
Speaker 2:I think the biggest thing with it and whether it's younger players or senior players and pros is you've just got to be authentic, like you can't try and brag these things.
Speaker 2:You know what you know and you don't know what you don't know.
Speaker 2:So, ultimately, as a coach, you want to get better and better and you want to keep expanding your knowledge, but at the same time, if you don't know something, don't try and brag it, but actually work with the players and pull it out of them and the way that you can question them and work with them. They'll often come up with the answers themselves, and then I guess your job in some circumstances is to kind of take what they're saying and then put that into a drill that's going to address what the issue is. So that's yeah, I think that's always important. Actually, there's you've got to perform the role of being a head coach or an assistant coach or skills coach or whatever that may be, but you've also got to be authentic in yourself, in the way that you deliver it, because, as I say, players can see through you and that's where you lose the credibility. If you don't know something, that's fine. Players don't know everything, coaches don't know everything of every aspect, but I think as long as you're open and honest, then players respond pretty well to that.
Speaker 1:actually, yeah, that's a really interesting point. I remember I look back on and I've mentioned it a few times in previous podcasts that one of my biggest learnings but my biggest it was holding me back at the time was pretending I knew it all. And I look back on it and like it was just like because I wanted to gain respect and authority and that's how I thought you went about doing. It is pretending you know at all and kind of bullshitting your way through a few conversations or a few sessions or even just little parts of sessions. But what that ultimately does it, it chips away at your reputation somewhat. With the players and the players We've all been there as well. We all talk, you know it's and there's coaches. We've got to understand that as well. So, yeah, really being able to say I don't know the answer, it's such a powerful thing. But going out and finding it or looking for it or trying to find solutions towards that answer tends to be a very crucial component of not only personal growth but team growth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think the other element there is you don't want to coach in silo like. You want to be coaching as part of a group and a team of coaches, and that's what's really powerful. If you can build the right group of coaches and managers and support staff, that's, that's that collective is much more powerful than you think and that you know at all, and everything has to come through you. Actually, you know, as I say, having a kind of cohort of coaches that you, that you work with, that's that's the really powerful thing and that's the thing that then allows for, you know, some significant growth within the group.
Speaker 1:And that takes maturity from a coach to be able to say this is a team, this isn't. Of course, head coach has got to sometimes make the final decision. But it does take a lot of maturity. If you've got assistant coaches who come along to a session, utilize them, because they might be able to say the same message in a different voice and it just lands differently with different players, you know. So, yeah, being able to, to give up that, that sense of you have to do it all just because you have head coach. Actually sometimes you do, you do less and you observe more as a head coach and and kind of steer the coaches a little bit more. I've always found that a really important element once you accept that you should be doing that or thinking about it. Or how'd you get collaboration with your, your fellow coaches?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I see that now. So again, just looking at where we are with with football club at the minute, really fortunate to bring in Andy Hall, who's level four coach, played international rugby of Scotland, coached Hong Kong, took them through the rep charge again, has got a masters and a PhD in coaching and sports psychology and all those good things, and he's now coaching our premier women's side. Now there's no point me telling Hallie how he should be running a line out, because he knows that a lot better than I do. However, how I can help him with his coaching is the understanding of, of the group of. You know what's the level that that he needs to be pitching at, what's the what's the dynamic within the group around. You know different personalities or so, again, understanding the environment is something where, hopefully, I've been able to help him and he's been able to then come in and work and have a really positive impact on on that group with his kind of on pitch coaching.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just getting that alignment with the players and just having that experience of someone going right.
Speaker 1:This group tends to be like this and not not there's not always black and white, but just giving people a little bit of information to work with and then they can figure it out and then be authentic to themselves, but knowing that it's going to be helping the group, as opposed to but in heads and I've certainly been environments where the coaches have been saying one thing, the players have been feeling another thing and no one's going anywhere fast. You know it. Just, it just becomes a tougher situation to be in and coaching can get tough, and part of his podcast is when coaching goes wrong. Is there anything in your background or experience that you think is is worth exploring a little bit more and sharing? So other coaches who are listening and might be able to go oh, I'm feeling that right now and essentially it didn't necessarily go well, but this is what is learned and this is why it was an important part of of my journey. Is there anything to dig deeper into there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it could be a lot, it could be a long podcast if we go into all of them, but no, I mean I think when, when we initially had these discussions, that the, the campaign and and the team that kind of jumped out at me was was working with our under 20. So, again, part of my remit with the rugby union in Hong Kong was to look after elite player development and a core part of that is the under 20s program and we've been successful in in getting to world trophies, so I think one now, the last eight Asia rugby championships, playing against the likes of Chinese, taipei and Malaysia and Sri Lanka and Korea and Japan at times as well, but then that step up from from the Asia rugby champs into the world under 20 trophy is is significant and I was given the opportunity to to be the head coach of the under 20s in 2018, I think it was. We went to Romania and we played there and it was it was opening because again, it was my first time kind of leading on a kind of longer form campaign. It was working with a really talented group of players but again, quite an inexperienced group of players who would all come together from. Some were in Hong Kong, some were based overseas. So we came together and, as coaches you know, we went with this group and we went out and we played our first game you know we were quite happy with, with one, sorry we'd lost 41 20 to Samoa, but again you, like you know, held your head up high and that's, that's good.
Speaker 2:And then match two, we came and we played Namibia and it was a bloodbath. We lost. We lost 84, 10 and it was, I remember, kind of sitting there and you're watching this game unfold and, as I say, you know you're pretty happy with your previous performance and this one. Everything was going wrong. You were completely beaten up, you were outwitted, as, as coaches you know, the game plan just wasn't working. The players, you could see they're in that kind of fight or flight mode and some of them were doing a bit of both and it was, you know, it was, it was really opening and and a real challenge. And then, you know, I guess, as a younger coach as well, you're almost embarrassed by that because like, well, what does that say about me as a coach? And so, yeah, that was a, that was a massive challenge.
Speaker 2:And we then went on to kind of continue a bit of a pattern within the tournament. So we then, when we beat Romania 56, 33 and I remember again at the end of that game, being so relieved, I walked down from the stands, walked behind a wall and started crying, so, so, so relieved of, of just getting a win and, for context, hong Kong had only won before one game at the under 20 trophy in the previous four or five times we've been there. So I don't know why I should have been, you know, so surprised that we weren't winning all the games. But I remember winning, winning that game and the relief that came from that. But then again, the next game you know I was the fifth, sixth player from.
Speaker 2:We lost 78, 17 to Uruguay, so came back down to earth with a, with a bit of a bump, but certainly for myself as a, as a head coach, that was a huge learning experience in a number of ways, really the need to grow throughout a campaign.
Speaker 2:So again, we, we, we thought we performed okay against Samara in that first game.
Speaker 2:So I think consciously, subconsciously, you'll pat yourself on the back in your you know, you're like, okay, this is good, we've got something to work with, and you take your foot off the gas a little bit and then when that second game came, it was a yeah, it's a real slap in the face. But, you know, reflecting on that, a lot of it, as I say, was through, you know, experience probably or lack of experience, I should say, as a as players and coaches, probably looking at results more than performance as well which is, you know, certainly at the youth age groups is is something that's not really that beneficial to do. I'd say so. Yeah, they were. There were some pretty trying times, I'll be honest, because I'd wrap my whole identity up in being the Hong Kong under 20s head coach, probably to the detriment or definitely to the detriment of my wider role, as you know, a program manager and looking after the whole of the elite playing group and pathway. I'd really kind of dove head first into head coach and lost a lot of perspective, I guess.
Speaker 1:Well, if there's any consolation, I coached those first two World Trophies and I didn't even win a game, so definitely, you're definitely up there. But what I really liked, what you said about that I think is really powerful how your identity was wrapped up essentially in a result and that it became very results focused and also and I felt this so many times and getting a bit more comfortable with it now because there's a body of work I can lean on going. Well, no, this guy kind of knows what he's doing, but what do other people think of this result? I? What do they think of me? And I found that really, really debilitating, because I was then coaching for the wrong reasons and I was coaching for everyone else's perception of me or the team. We probably didn't really care that much. You know, like if you're looking at deeply or the care about the results, about how the players developing and how did you go about unpacking that identities around the result for you to move forward?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it was. Yeah, I density around the result identity of Steven Douse, hong Kong under 20 head coach, and that's that's who I am. That's what I am there for. The results, you know, give me more or less credit and credence, and so it was helpful.
Speaker 2:Again, coming back to Hong Kong, sitting down having a pretty blunt conversation with another, another guy we both know, lee Jones around you know what did the campaign look like, what were the positives from it, what were the?
Speaker 2:You know the things we needed to work on and really kind of unpacking it and then moving forward, then understanding my role as part of the, the Hong Kong Rugby Union and the organization, being more than just a head coach of the Hong Kong under 20s, but understanding, you know, a lot of the success and I look back on it with pride now is Hong Kong went on to win Asian Games Gold after after that World Trophy and a number of those players that played in that World Trophy and had played in previous ones and one since I think eight or eight or nine of those players won Asian Games Gold, which was huge for the, for the organization and for for Hong Kong Rugby, because it means it means that you're in the Hong Kong Institute of Sport, it means that you've got significant amount of funding.
Speaker 2:So really it was and still looking at well, where have those players ended up? Are they are? Have they progressed? Did they again get what they needed to in that environment to allow them to grow? And then, how do we make sure that the future trophies and for future players, there's a pathway in place that allows for experiences before, after a World Trophy, that they're going to allow them to grow? So I think that was a massive takeaway for me is not just looking at one campaign or one game, but looking at a much broader pathway and making sure that we're preparing these players, as I said, ultimately to be professional rugby players or to be as good as they can be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's so interesting from the players and the coach and perspective and this is probably familiar with people all around the world that very good in your own environment in terms of playing locally, excellent, well done, everyone's going well. Then you move it on to the Asia Games or Asia tournament, probably minus Japan, again going really great. And the thing is with that you're not really ever tested and that was always really to the forefront when we went to the World Trophy that we were probably good for one game, but then tiredness comes in and then a few injuries come in and then fatigue in terms of mentally and physically. Just how do you keep getting yourself up for biggest games you've ever played it's essentially four cup finals in a row when you're used to just having it all easy locally in Asia and just having that experience as a player but also as a coach, to go through that going.
Speaker 1:This is actually a different kettle of fish and we just need to. Whatever we do, we need to be better prepared going into these tournaments so we can give ourselves the best fine chance. So how do you for coaches are in this environment now that may be too good for one league, not good enough for the other. How do you think you can start manipulating or manufacturing an environment, what creates more pressure, time constraints, better skill level, when you don't necessarily have those options readily available?
Speaker 2:I'll just touch on that last part there, because one of the hardest things for Hong Kong going to a World Trophy is always the style of game that Hong Kong needed to play, because the profile of player is the hardest style of game to play, so it requires high skill level, high accuracy, real efficiency, ability to play for 80 minutes. Hong Kong. We just don't have the cattle that allows you to. You know if you're a Uruguay or Namibia or one of those other teams that have got very big men.
Speaker 1:Georgia used to be involved in those tournaments.
Speaker 2:Exactly who can play a game plan that essentially is, you know, based around scrum, line out. We're going to maul you to the, you know, to the hills and you can slow the game down. A game is so much easier to slow down than it is to speed up. And remember when we were playing Uruguay in the fifth, sixth playoff and they were clever, they'd make a substitution, one at a time, so that it slowed the game down every single time it was just one player on, one player off, and then three minutes later, right, the next sub's going to come on and they're taking age and then, you know, the prop would go down before a scrum and tie a shoelace, and it was so infuriating because, as I say, for Hong Kong, the style of game it needs to be high tempo, you need to be able to wear a team out for 50, 60 minutes and then hope that you can get them over in the last 20 minutes. So it's yeah, that's the other thing is the game that you needed to play was the hardest game, really, but at the same time, by coaching those players how to play that way, when they did develop and they did grow and they started to get a bit bigger. You know we've seen it at the senior level. You know we've beaten Romanias and Kenyans and Zimbabwe's and Chili's and those teams. You know we've beaten them at a senior level. So, again, not a not a not a bad thing necessarily to have lost them at a younger level, but, yeah, it certainly was a challenge with the way that we had to play in terms of preparing for for a tournament like that or, you know, for any, any campaign like that.
Speaker 2:I think it is just about understanding what is required. So, once, once we know how do we want to play, what do we want the campaign to look like, how are we going to hold ourselves accountable? What are we going to review? What are we going to measure? And then we can judge ourselves against that. So, regardless of whether we win or lose, you know, did we execute XYZ? How have we reacted in the face of certain matches? Again, have we grown throughout the tournament? And that's still resonates with me now, whether it's tournaments or whether it's the season you want to be playing your best rugby at the end of that season. You want to be growing throughout the campaign. And how do you keep players focused on that, whether they're in a really bad losing run or really good losing run. How do you keep them kind of focused? And again, there's many different techniques to do that. But yeah, I certainly think that's a that's a really important one as well.
Speaker 1:And actually that's really interesting because in my, in my environment over at Yale, we call it layering on. We layer on and I know I'm not giving them everything they necessarily need or want to know at the very start. How do we build and build, and I found it to be a pretty, pretty effective way of peeking at the right times and also keeping things fresh. It was that right.
Speaker 1:How do you right, we're working on this play offer of a formation, of the pod formation or whatever, but how do we start building little variants into that? And it's like, well, actually, if we can't do a B, forget about CBE, you know, and it was all about and then as they start to get a little bit better, we put a little bit more pressure on that's when more decision making comes. So just yeah, just kind of keeping a few things in the back pocket, which is sometimes really difficult to do because you just want to get all your information out there. But what I found is is players, they don't necessarily retain that much information. It's all about how do we get the core fundamentals down and build as the season goes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's the ability to kind of keep developing your game plan or, as you say, layering things on. But at the same time you have to keep hammering the core skills and I struggle when people call them the basics, because they're not the basics. That, the core skills. If it's basic, everyone could do it, but they can't. It's the core skills that you really need to muster because, again, you know, if you're looking at a fancy first phase strike move, well, that's great, but if you don't win the line out, then it doesn't matter about what your next you know three phases are going to look like. Or your, you know your snazzy start a play. So really what you see is is the people that can execute the core skills under pressure, the players that can switch on at the right time. It's one thing I you know.
Speaker 2:I'll be honest, I noticed a bit last season Again, we're having a successful season here at a football club with our men's team but I noticed every time we got a penalty when we then kicked for a line out, our success rate at that subsequent line out was really poor, and it was just because we weren't we weren't focused enough. We got a penalty. Everyone kind of switched off and went great, we've got a penalty, you know, and. And then that subsequent line out, as I say, the accuracy level wasn't, wasn't high enough. So sometimes it's just being alert to that and picking that up and seeing a bit of a trend and then addressing that with the players. And it's not a skill level, it's not because they didn't, they weren't skillful enough. It was simply because they again, subconsciously or consciously, they switched off a little bit once they've got a penalty. So yeah, being able to pick up those things I think is important as well.
Speaker 1:And how did you train that? Once you highlighted it and you spotted it and it became a bit of a theme, how'd you go about training?
Speaker 2:Well, I told the coach it was something we just highlighted and then addressed with the team and it was part of a wider thing around. You know, particularly in the 22, as we're attacking, what was our execution rate like? So then again, we just started measuring it, and a lot of the time, as I say, it's not always a skill level, especially up, you know, once you start again to a higher standard, it is just about a mindset. And also, again, have you got clarity? So, do they understand what they need to do?
Speaker 2:Is the line out not working because we're trying to go for a helm area at the back of the line out and do a complicated one when actually the opposition were playing against? Once we're in the 22, don't jump anyway. So we could just go to the, go to the front or the middle and get the ball and then execute from there. Or is it? You know, when we're five meters from the line, we've got a bit of white line fever and instead of getting our pods set or, you know, carrying and falling the right way, actually people are trying to score straight away and go one out. So it's then repping those things under pressure. And again, that's where we're really fortunate, having having that depth of player will play once against twos or, you know, we'll have the starters versus the subs and we'll just rep it. And that competition again, that competition for spots is really important as well because you reward those guys that under pressure can do things and that again helps focus minds as well.
Speaker 1:I've really found a first team tends to be only as strong as the second team and just from the competition, the reps, the depth, and I really started changing my focus. Of course, of course, when you're looking at a team, you look at the first team. That's what everyone looks at Like. I've actually started giving so much more attention, more than I ever gave, to the guys in that second team or that kind of the players number 20 to 40 on your roster or on your squad, and I've just found, for so many positive reasons not only the competition but also just the buy-in and the enthusiasm and you're part of that club it's just been a really good thing. I wish I started doing earlier, just spending more time with those guys who aren't wearing one to 23.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and again, I think everyone, when you look at Hong Kong Football Club, if you Google it or look on Instagram or whatever, you look at it and you see the facilities and it's a ridiculous place. We're hugely fortunate. The facilities are far superior than most other clubs in the world, to be honest, and everyone thinks, oh, you win because you've got the best facilities and stuff. And the reality is is we win because we've got depth, and our drop-off from our starting second row to our fifth choice second row is the least. So the gap in terms of skill level and knowledge and ability from our top-top player to our guy who might play occasionally or has to come on the bench is the least. And we train our ones and twos together for most of the time, to be honest. And importantly, our second-grade coach. He works really, really closely with our first-grade coach. Again, he'll support the first-grade if two's on playing and he's got a massive role here as well because he needs to keep those guys engaged. You know yourself with managing players, it's easy to manage the starting 15 or the first 23. It's, how do you keep the others engaged? How do you keep them so that they're doing the reps that they need to. So when they do get put in they're at the level that they need to be so that they can perform.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it's huge and again, it's something for us with our second-grade team. Actually, previously it was full of lots of old guys, but we've worked over the past couple of years to really bring down that age of player. So we want our younger guys coming through, the under-18s, coming into our second grade and guys returning from university in that group, in that cohort, so that we're exposing them to a higher level, so that when they do come in in the future they're of the standard that they need to be. Like, the short-term way to win the second-grade comp would be to have all the old guys in there. But actually, you know, we want to build for the future and we want to make sure that we're giving our youngsters opportunities. So that may mean we lose, you know, a few games, but actually, again, going away from the results, it's more looking at okay, well, have we got another group coming through? Because that transition, that pathway for players, is really important as we continue to manage the squad that we have.
Speaker 1:Now how do you go about managing that? And I know there's going to be a lot of people listening going. We've got these stubborn old boys who are not hanging out. They want to keep getting their reps and done what they've done. So essentially, you're kind of nudging them away from that performance end of the game and asking them to go to the 3s, 4s, 5s or 6s in your case, which is still pretty incredible. But that takes a lot of management and that's where a lot of cultural issues can come up within teams and with clubs when you're essentially trying to change the makeup or have a team looks and plays. Was there any friction there or was it managed well?
Speaker 2:I think, to be honest, it partly came about through COVID as well. So when I came into this role, it was the end of COVID. So, to be honest, a lot of guys who were here had been here with business and things like that. They had left. So there was a bit of a void there and, as I say, rather than filling it with older guys, we decided, right, we'll use this as an opportunity to bring in the youngsters and make this the kind of landing spot for them.
Speaker 2:The other thing that's really important is making sure that people are aligned in the club. So, whether that be the chairman or the committee or the coaching staff or the players or the wider supporters and members, it's making sure everyone understands what you're trying to do and getting by. And so we sit down, probably once, twice a year, with the under 18s group and the coaches and the players and we kind of present them on right. This is Hong Kong Football Club at a senior level. This is what we do. This is why we do it, this is why you're so important and you know, no matter if you're going to go away to university or you're going to stay here for university. We want you engaged before you go, so that you keep touching base with us anytime you're back and then once you finish university, ideally you come back and again you start and you reintegrate with the club and you start playing for us again.
Speaker 2:So that's a really big piece and it's something that, unfortunately, I can kind of lean on my background in terms of working with overseas players and younger players, and we're really fortunate our head coach, logan Asplin. His background he was a coach at Hamilton Boys High School. So again, we're quite aligned as a coach and a DOR in terms of really promoting youth and wanting to give younger guys an opportunity, and the reality is that our squad at the minute is pretty old. So we're going to go through a transition at the end of this season, I think, where we're going to lose a fair chunk of players, and so we need to be proactive and, as I say, blood these youngsters and then supplement that with quality imports that come in and they also have a massive impact. Like, we want to make sure that our recruitment is the best out of any club here in order to have people that the younger players can learn off of.
Speaker 1:So it sounds like you've got a very good coaching and the kind of hierarchy within the club, really good alignment going on there, a lot of conversations, a lot of alignment to a common goal. I've got myself thinking when I go back when you mentioned that under 20s back in Romania, and it sounded like a very emotional time when lose, or well, when or lose At that time, did you have any support? If you had support, did you ask for it and yeah, just to dive into there now, were you alone? Did you feel alone? Or yeah, where did that? Where did it all come from?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I think had support in terms of. So I had two really good assistant coaches guy called Brian Renne, who's now actually looks after the the Hong Kong sevens than the commercial aspect of that and run the sevens, and a great guy like great experience as a player, played for extra chiefs and Bristol and really really good guy that you could talk to and but he himself was a was a young coach. And then the other guy, our forwards coach, was a guy called Brett Wilkinson who was one of the head coaches at one of the clubs here and has since gone on. He works with Ealing Trailfinders now as their forwards coach. So had a couple of really good assistant coaches.
Speaker 2:But again at the time I think we're all quite quite new to it and then in terms of you know, senior managers and stuff, that's probably, I think, an area where, on reflection, there should have been someone else come with us who could have again kept guiding and navigating and and seen it for themselves as well, because it would have been good to get another, another viewpoint.
Speaker 2:As I say, we will probably live in quite a similar thing, so had quite a similar viewpoint, whereas I think again, if, if under 20s was next week, if I went with that team as a manager or something like that, then probably feed into those coaches and probably give a different viewpoint, having lived it. You know myself, as, as you know, I'm sure you could have as well. So, yeah, that's probably one thing that was that was missing and that's where, when doing the review, there was a lot of value in the review but at the same time, reviewing post an event is very different than the ability to review and to process things as your, as you're living it yeah, I think that's so important, like similar experience actually with the world world trophy under 20s lost, lost, for we got beat by Portugal.
Speaker 1:And remember it was a young, young coach and staff and I was.
Speaker 1:I was the youngest and I remember, immediately after being called in like we're talking hours after being called into a meeting by some non coaching higher ups within the union and asking for the debrief, immediately and I was like what on earth do I say, like it's essentially these are the ones who ultimately are paying your wages, like a few rungs up, and it was just so, so difficult not having a sounding board to be able to one process your own emotion and and to be able to give anything of merit in that time when when it's clearly an emotional time and I cannot agree more with what you said there's just having someone around you to to lean on and just talk to in the moment, because retrospectively it's always past, it's always gone.
Speaker 1:Yes, you can look forward, but actually you got four or five games. You know you've got. You still got a tournament to run or a league to win or games to get people playing for. You know, even I can imagine coaches out there listening having 1314 players available weekend, like how do they keep going? And I think it's just having that support network in place who is is wise enough to know what's going on, but also slightly removed, so they don't have emotion in that, in that game as well.
Speaker 2:I think that's really important yeah, and it's something as a coach, as you, as you get older, as you develop and you know work in different positions.
Speaker 2:What I really value now is having a network of people that I can, that I can talk to and that I can reach out to and, you know, discuss.
Speaker 2:It might be a singular topic or it might be a kind of broader situation and really kind of you get, as I say, be open and honest with them and know that you'll get open, honest feedback as well, and by showing a bit of vulnerability and being authentic, you nothing bad ever comes of that, like I've I've found and you start to actually build some really great relationships and and want to help each other.
Speaker 2:And certainly, I think, as a as a younger coach, you think you're doing something different and you think, yeah, you know you're going to come up with this amazing program that you're playing in or you know, put in place a program that no one else is going to be able to replicate and you want to hold it all so tightly. Then you realize, as you get older, there's people that are doing it far better than you and and a lot of people as, as they kind of, as I say, they're going to be able to get into the higher levels. They're usually the people that are more open and willing to share and willing to, yeah, work with others and and that's something that I think is a real strength at the minute is, whether it's northern hemisphere again, being able to ring up Brett and talk about forwards play, or being able to talk to Joe Shaw and you know how he finds is a head coach of Saracens or you know, whatever it may be, it's it's.
Speaker 1:It's great having those connections that you can kind of lean on in different areas and that that brings me on to to one of my last questions around the use of learning and where do you get you? So you've already mentioned that you use some key networks to get your learning. Is there any other places where you go, or what you listen to or read or have around you where you are constantly just trying to pick up some new things?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think it's. Trying to put yourself in different environments is certainly very good for learning. So for myself, I'll go and talk to. So we've got different sections here. We've got a hockey section and a squash section, netball section. So talking to the different directors of their various sports and going have a look at what they're doing. Between my role with the rugby union and Hong Kong football club, I went and worked at the school and did some mentoring there and that was great to see. Again, you know how, how, how, with the teachers doing things because they're essentially coaches as well and again mentoring a couple of younger assistant teachers and helping them.
Speaker 2:So being in different environments business is one that I would like to probably go into as well and actually go and have a look. You again, you don't always say you don't come to Hong Kong because you're failing, like you come to Hong Kong because the company has asked you to move there, and so we're really fortunate with the kind of demographic of player and member that we have here, where, you know, there's guys who are heads of CEOs of very, very big international corporations. So I'm interested actually to go in and have a look at what they're doing, like what's a, what's a hedge fund manager doing, or what's someone who's working in equities doing, or what's someone in you know these, these other positions doing, and trying to take the learnings there. And then also just through, again, articles and books and podcasts, and there's one, tools of the Titans, by Tim Ferriss.
Speaker 2:That's a. That's a pretty good book and it's not solely on sport. There's there's people from sport that have contributed to it, but it's it's again different people who have been successful in their own different areas, given snippets of you know what, what they think help them. So, yeah, that's a good book to read if you, if you haven't done so, and for someone that's short attention span like myself, it's quite good because the chapters are short.
Speaker 1:I can just imagine the different head coaches of the section of football global sit around the pool of a pinnacle largest just talking, talking about their different philosophies and how they should run it. You know it's. It's fun how we ever have live in the coaching world elsey we're pretty fortunate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can't, I can't deny it. But having having looked in from the outside for 10 years, yeah, I've seen both sides of it. So, as I say, it's, the facilities are nice, but it's it's the people that are that are really the important thing.
Speaker 1:I look forward to coming out there, maybe having a drink in the sportsman's bar if I'm allowed back in, it would be. It'd be wonderful to put some some drinks on your tab beautiful, it sounds good. Hey Dalsy, really really like that mate. Thank you so much. Some very valuable lessons, particularly around just how you, how you impact the mistakes, who you lean on and how do you get better. Some really cool stuff in there. So I want to thank you for your time and all the best, mate loved it.
Speaker 2:No, thank you, mate. Really appreciate that and, yeah, look forward to seeing you soon.