Discover the transformative journey of Chris Brown, a coach whose expertise has spanned continents. In a revealing look behind the scenes, Chris recounts his path from a strength and conditioning coach to taking the helm of the USA Women's Sevens team. His stories are a trove of lessons on leadership and wisdom gleaned from international locker rooms. Whether you're a sports enthusiast or simply fascinated by the art of coaching, Chris's experiences are bound to enlighten and entertain.
What does it take to manage a team through the rollercoaster of elite competition? Chris lays bare the intricacies of handling conflict, delicate team dynamics, and the courage it takes to face tough conversations. He shares personal anecdotes of when things didn't go as planned and the resilience required to bounce back stronger. The episode is an honest exploration of the emotional landscape of Olympic team selections, the critical nature of staff alignment, and the importance of trust—insights that resonate far beyond the rugby pitch.
For anyone striving to master their own coaching techniques or leadership style, this episode is a playbook of high-performance wisdom. Chris gives us a peek into the meticulous planning of training regimens, the thoughtful integration of fresh talent, and the significance of building relationships that thrive under pressure. The discussion also celebrates the power of mentorship, continuous learning, and the humility that comes with seeking help. Join us for an engaging session that serves as a masterclass in navigating the ever-evolving path of leadership and personal growth.
Discover the transformative journey of Chris Brown, a coach whose expertise has spanned continents. In a revealing look behind the scenes, Chris recounts his path from a strength and conditioning coach to taking the helm of the USA Women's Sevens team. His stories are a trove of lessons on leadership and wisdom gleaned from international locker rooms. Whether you're a sports enthusiast or simply fascinated by the art of coaching, Chris's experiences are bound to enlighten and entertain.
What does it take to manage a team through the rollercoaster of elite competition? Chris lays bare the intricacies of handling conflict, delicate team dynamics, and the courage it takes to face tough conversations. He shares personal anecdotes of when things didn't go as planned and the resilience required to bounce back stronger. The episode is an honest exploration of the emotional landscape of Olympic team selections, the critical nature of staff alignment, and the importance of trust—insights that resonate far beyond the rugby pitch.
For anyone striving to master their own coaching techniques or leadership style, this episode is a playbook of high-performance wisdom. Chris gives us a peek into the meticulous planning of training regimens, the thoughtful integration of fresh talent, and the significance of building relationships that thrive under pressure. The discussion also celebrates the power of mentorship, continuous learning, and the humility that comes with seeking help. Join us for an engaging session that serves as a masterclass in navigating the ever-evolving path of leadership and personal growth.
Hello and welcome back to the when Coaching Goes Wrong podcast. In this show, I'm joined by Chris Brown, who has a varied coaching career spanning many different countries. He started off as an S&C coach and has moved through the ranks all the way to a head coach of the USA Women's Sevens team on the World Series and the Olympics. He's now a high performance consultant with World Rugby and also is the managing director of Victory Strategies, which is a leadership development firm. In this episode, we cover selection decisions, relationships and all things what happen at a very high end, at the elite level of a game. This is fascinating, and what I love about Chris is how open he is. He calls a spade a spade and he isn't afraid of sharing, and that's why he's an awesome guest on the show and I know you're going to love it. Just to settle in and enjoy the show, chris. Thanks for joining me on the pod. How are you, mate?
Speaker 2:Doing well, mate doing well.
Speaker 1:Tell me where you are in the world. What are you up to?
Speaker 2:Well, we're actually in South Africa at the moment. I figured that, with them being world champions, I should probably spend Christmas here. So my wife's actually from here. So we haven't been back for about two and a half years and had an opportunity to come this way for a little bit of work, and we made a family trip about it. So I'm here in Bloemfontein, right in the middle of the country, at the moment.
Speaker 1:Excellent. I'm sure it's a bit warmer than it is where I'm sitting right now, but look in terms of what's your day. Just give us a bit more about your kind of day to day life in and out of sport.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, craig. Since I left USA Rugby, most of my work I've been doing has been, yes, around. There's been little rugby consultancy roles with different academies, been doing a little bit of work with World Rugby recently and back in Africa Just been helping the Kenyan 7s team the men's and women's sides in preparation for the Olympics and I've been doing quite a few culture development workshops with, again with the Academy level sports teams but also with some companies. So that's kind of the avenue that's been opened up since leaving USA Rugby. But still heavily connected to rugby and obviously you grow up loving it in New Zealand, as of yourself in the UK, and it never gets out of your blood. So it's still good to be involved.
Speaker 1:Brilliant in terms of the coaching. Obviously, this is a coaching podcast, so I want to start diving a little bit deeper around there. Where did coaching begin for you and what did it look like back in those days?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean again, most people think I'm already 50, but I'm actually. It's only because I've got no hair and I'm going grey, so I'm actually still relatively young in coaching circles. So I started coaching when I was 22. I had a number of injuries in a row. I'm from New Zealand originally and so still chasing that all black dream. That was the big dream right throughout. But then, after three years of consistent injuries and really struggling a little bit from a mindset standpoint and starting to shy away from the contact, I actually started.
Speaker 2:I got an opportunity when I finished my degree in Sport and Exile Science to move to South Africa. They have a university system here and the competition they plan is called the Varsity Cup, a bit like I guess what's it called Division 12 or the football. You have those big football competitions. They have one with the top eight universities here in South Africa and I had an opportunity, through a former lecturer, to come over and really take on a role that I wasn't qualified for in many ways just to implement what he had set up. Because he got promoted to a new role and him and the coach were really happy with what they'd set up over the first two or three years, and so they decided to go with some young gun who would come in and follow their order. That was kind of the starting point and gave me the opportunity to move out of the playing field into the coaching field pretty early on.
Speaker 1:How did you so in terms of, can you remember your first session, your first couple of sessions? What was it like? Obviously a Kiwi going over there. What were people expecting? What were you expecting? I would love to hear more around those experiences.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, for those that are listening and know the rugby landscape in South Africa, the Afrikaners, the Dutchmen, of course there's Englishmen and people from all the different backgrounds playing this game, but where I was it was Afrikaner, afrikaner like country, and so a lot of them everybody's bilingual, at least in understanding, but they do struggle with the English a bit more than anyone else. And so here I am, a Kiwi that speaks too quickly, mumbles a bit and spent. You know, I haven't really coached before. I'm literally there and I'm like okay, copy me. In many ways that's what you're doing. And I remember one of the very first training sessions and I only found out about three, four months later.
Speaker 2:But there was a number of guys from the Mibia and Bodzwana on the border of South Africa, and they hadn't had as much exposure to English compared to a lot of the other guys. And I'm looking at them, wondering why they're not looking at me when I'm communicating, and the reason being is because they're waiting for the Afri to translate. And then, to top that off, what I was doing I was turning my back to demonstrate and I was trying to articulate what they needed to do while I was demonstrating. So you can imagine, let alone for another Kiwi to understand and follow those instructions. It was near impossible for those country Afrikaners that weren't fluent in English to really you know to follow me off the cuff and straight away. So that was probably the introduction, and very quickly, with some good guidance from the head coach. Hey, you need to slow down. You're speaking and you also need to make sure you finish articulating yourself before you demonstrate, otherwise you're going to lose these guys pretty quickly.
Speaker 1:So yeah, that's a pretty powerful moment. My next question was going to be how did you figure out because sometimes you don't know what you don't know right, you need someone from the outside or you need the ability to reflect, which is a really, really, it's a skill you know being able to reflect back on what you've just done. So, yeah, tell me more about your head coach down the mentor. Like, how did that conversation go? Or was it just like, oh, yeah, I get that.
Speaker 2:No, I mean, I was very fortunate. The guy I worked with, he again, he was a more mature coach and so he'd seen a bit. And I think where I started to get frustrated that I wasn't getting the response from those athletes, that's when he kind of pulled me aside and he's like, hey, this is what's happening and this is what I'm noticing, Okay, and at that stage I was pretty receptive. I'd like to still think that I'm still receptive to feedback, but it was a pretty quick turnaround. But again, you know, you got to change those habits and it wasn't just overnight that I started getting it completely on point, but at least with the awareness when I found myself not being effective in my delivery, quite often it was there'd be a laugh involved or kind of mock yourself and reset, you know, and so that was great. And you know, that was almost 22 years old and that was in 2007 and really that first year of coaching really, I guess gave me the you know as we all do that was the life experience that we need to.
Speaker 2:You know, to sit the foundation off, so and it's brilliant.
Speaker 1:Actually, you look across your career and the teams you've coached now like what an early foundation because you're essentially parachuted into a complete new culture, a new environment, and if you look at your career since you've been in completely different environments and cultures as well so probably a very formative experience to pull back on when you need to.
Speaker 2:Oh no, definitely Craig, you're right. And again, when you're reflecting and you do take some time, you look back a while. Okay, because I've been. I spent half my time in Africa and half my time in the States, but the time in Africa was across three different countries and those countries are quite distinct in their own right and yeah, it's funny how you say that, but there are a lot of similarities across any group of people. You just got to be able to find them but then also be able to, I guess, embrace those differences. And again, just, I think most people really just want to know that you care, first and foremost, and that gives you a bit more grace when you maybe aren't as familiar with the culture or how to carry yourself most effectively with the people.
Speaker 1:And I think those skills that you mentioned there like a big word that would jump it up to me was connection. So how do you go about knowing what you know now and how you've built on your experiences? How do you go about building those connections with people where you find things in common and celebrate? The other things that you mentioned are equally as important. Talk to me more about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely. I think, first and foremost, the more you expose yourself up front, the more you share about your vulnerabilities. And when I say that like this podcast, I love the theme of it and the learnings that you take away from it, because the more you do that up front, the quicker you'll get them to drop their guard down. And one of the greatest learning moments I had was after and again, it didn't really matter what the topic was, but the learning was okay. That was a sensitive topic to a number of different people who see it different ways, and when I actually got it wrong and how I addressed it or approached it, again, it was a make or break moment for me and one of the teams that I was working with.
Speaker 2:Regarding you, know, was I going to shadow the trust I've already built or was I actually going to you know what was going to actually happen?
Speaker 2:And by me taking ownership and responsibility and apologizing and what you know, I wanted to be perfect.
Speaker 2:It was like literally within the first six weeks of taking over a team, and so I was gutted by the way that I kind of missed the cues and missed reading things and then, but what actually happened was the kind of I guess, fragile or what's it called walk on eggshells which a lot of them they want to impress as much as the coach wants to get everything right. A lot of that disappeared very quickly because suddenly, as I took responsibility and apologized, I believed the outcome was you guys don't have to be perfect, you don't have to get it right, but when you do get it right, you don't have to get it right all the time, but when you do get it wrong, how are you going to respond and are you going to point the finger or are you going to look at yourself first and take responsibility? And it actually just really set the tone for the rest of the season and really the rest of the quarter or the quad which I was again. That's not what I was expecting. It wasn't planned, but I was grateful for that.
Speaker 1:And how did you so? Thanks for sharing that. How did you go about so? You put yourself out there, apologized or for whatever it could be, or spoke to team. How did those initial conversations come about? Was it a big group conversation? Was it talking with key individuals amongst the group? So how did what did that look like? Because we've all been well, a lot of people I know have been in coaching situations where there's become some sort of misalignment amongst the group, and it could be cultural things, it could be playing things. I'm really interested to dive into how people can use tools to bring it back to alignment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100%. And I think again, what I do now a little bit more on the team building around, going in and doing one day workshops a lot of that's to set the coach up in the team, up to have a blueprint to be able to work from so that a lot of these issues up front don't occur because we've got clarity of where we go and what we stand for, how we need to think, how we need to protect each other and protect this environment and what are we unifying around and what are we embracing. That are the differences from each other. That's key up front and I haven't had that in every team that I've gone through with Emily Bydwell, with the woman when I took them over in 2018. She was brilliant and we did a really good job up front of setting some of those things in order. But to answer that, that's a key one, whether you're coming into coaching or you're 20 years in it's making sure that, okay, where are we, what do we all see, what are we ultimately all aiming for and where are we currently and what's working for us and what's not, and then guiding them through kind of a process to really make sure that blueprint's clear. That'll bring confidence and that'll also bring okay, yep, we're all fighting for the same cause. But then when you're in the fight and you actually do get certain things wrong that we all do and we all walk consistently Whether it's a conversation I was having with a Cheta Imba or a Ben Finkelman, and the way I delivered it in the sense of well, actually, I remember one specifically with Alona Ma, my very first season and she was new to the environment and we were again.
Speaker 2:We were three months into it and I'm like I get into this mindset of I should, she should, she should, she should. And when you get into the should, should, should mindset, it's like it's very dangerous because you're about to snap and, in many ways, because you're like they should be doing this, they should be doing this, they should be doing this, and just not like literally coming at her and putting the fear, like there was no space for learning or exploring because everything had turned about you better or else Whether that was my language or not, it was the fact is that how I was coming at her and almost like how can you not understand this? We've been through this, we've gone through this, we've looked at this on tape. How can you still begin this wrong? So I'm belittling her understanding, her ability to actually to first of all understand but obviously be able to do and if she's learning something, then obviously explore and then find those moments of her, you know, getting better at it, and so that was a very real moment and just addressing it afterwards ultimately again and saying, hey, I was wrong and this is where I went and this is where it came from. It didn't make it right in the sense of how I responded to you, but where is the missing connection? Now, what aren't you understanding? What I need you, what do you need from me, was key, and that's no different to a more recent one, which is similar to what I shared before, as well as in Kenya in August, which is similar to me getting it wrong with the team and apologising up front and not really knowing how that's going to go. And in that situation, I chose to address the whole team up front.
Speaker 2:The one in Kenya wasn't actually me, but it was the advice somebody was seeking from myself. They had conflict with these two players and one was the captain and one was a future star. Let's say they had a lot of abilities, but because of how he was seeing it in the conflict. It was like, you know what, let's just get rid of her for the Olympic qualifier because we don't want to upset this person. I'm like, well, hold up in your team environment. You have four or five people that are friends of the youngster and you've got four or five that are behind the captain, but you're also. What are you cultivating here? Are you actually addressing these issues head on or are you helping them? Because, at the end of the day, if we look at the playing side, she's in your top 10 players are you 12, so she should be in the squad. What she's done?
Speaker 2:Again, the issue around relationships or whatever, and youngsters, as you can imagine, and again, any team, it doesn't really matter if the people that you work with are 35, 45 or 25 or 15 relationships are often some of the most challenging things that you need to manage inside and outside the sport. So you know, just going back to okay, so well, should we speak to these players individually or should we speak to the whole group? In the situation, in the sense of all right, we've had this issue. You know how are we going to address it, you know what's the best format and in that situation we decided, well, because I was like should we talk to the individual players first or should we? And then and I'm like, well, hold up, there's two individuals. You need to get clarity of what you're working with here. So we work with them individually, then we work with them together to get them on the same page. And the conversation. There wasn't much conversation happening to start off with, but after about 45 minutes there was some conversation happening and then that led to a conversation with the bigger group, so that again there was clarity. There was no lack of understanding whether people liked it or agreed or not. At least the clarity was there. And so that was one way versus again.
Speaker 2:Other times I've just gone straight in and gone. Hey, actually, craig, if I can continue, actually one of the ones where I've actually got it hasn't gone well is a selection meet, a meeting where I'm like it's a player that's been in a squad for a long time. Every team I've come into, 90% of the teams, 90% of the players have been retained. So it's really been about shifting mindset, getting clarity, getting them all to buy in and changing behavior and then a very simple game plan, rugby game plan, and I remember it was the first World Series tournament and I was deciding to drop this player who had played at the Olympics, played six years for the team and again, there's a lot of backstories that's not my place to share on here.
Speaker 2:However, it was like I was nervous because I didn't know how she was going to respond, not because I was necessarily worried about the conversation with me and her. It was more so what's going to, what's she going to be saying to everybody else? And so I mentioned to the two I had two captains at the time and I mentioned to the two captains hey, and it was only an hour before the flip and release, and and I told the team, and, and I told the captains look, this is what's going to happen. I didn't tell them the whole team, I just said, look, I'm not going to be selecting this player. I don't know how she's going to respond, but I really need your, I want to encourage you guys to be careful what you say. You understand what we are buying into and from a rugby standpoint, a cultural standpoint, I'm not happy where she's at, and yeah, et cetera.
Speaker 2:Within that 60 minutes, that player got hold of one of those captains who she knew how to manipulate, or knew how to, I guess, get information out of, and suddenly I had this fire of if I hadn't said anything to anyone and just done it where and then just address things as they went along and allowed people to show their true colors, it would have been so much cleaner, and so that was one of the learnings in the sense of would I do that again in the future? There are situations where I do, but now I ask myself the questions of ordinary precautions, if, and actually should, I be having this conversation first of this individual in a way, because that's the honorable thing to do, rather than me being scared or walking on eggshells of the outcome. So so I'm a lot of information there, three different stories, but hopefully useful.
Speaker 1:No, they're really, really useful because a lot of conflict can come around relationships and selection and bit of both. And it was really interesting what you're talking about there. It just sounds. It's so contextual to each given situation and the characters at play, because what worked somewhere else might not necessarily work there and what worked somewhere else might have been five, six, seven years in the making, where the new place might be day one, you know. So context is just unbelievably important. But it's now going oh, I'll actually have a tool for that, that, that and that.
Speaker 1:And unfortunately that doesn't often come without experience. And that's exactly why these conversations, I think, are important, because I know there's someone listening going oh, I'm in a similar situation, how can I potentially handle it? And really interesting as well. And I want to ask you, because you've got a really unique take on this what does it look like in terms of a national team selection where there is very, very, very fine margins for Olympic meddling, for example, or even qualification, managing those tough relationship issues, as opposed to maybe at a club where it's a bit more Tuesday, thursday, saturday and potentially there's a bit more time and there's maybe not as much at stake on the rugby side, as there is on the rugby side. So yeah, essentially, how is that potentially managed from club versus country?
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, depends on where those individuals are in the club scene in the sense of is that their final step or is that their part of their pathway to try to get to that next level? Because I think when you get to the Olympic level or national level you'll find, or even a college in America, to be fair, because, again, it's a big part of the pathway. It's their world, it's the athlete's world in many ways, and the more mature ones that have good mentors and people around them will help them see more objectively and help them see the bigger picture and look at every aspect of life. But so many of the players I've worked with it's like it's their everything and that's not a healthy place to be. And we spend time in the environment looking at not just their studies but their future aspirations, their families, their relations. We look at all that, but still it doesn't change the magnitude of how they see things, and so it depends on where they're at, I think again the more because I could go club versus you know, international clubs versus professional, and it could be like you know, it's all right, you know my emotions on here, because I love playing this game, whatever the sport is and whether I'm on the bench or this week.
Speaker 2:I'll take a written. You know it's not a big deal. It's like I don't agree with the coach, I don't agree. But you know what? I've got to go to work tomorrow and I'll worry about this on Thursday. You know, I think when I use someone like Ben Pinkleman again so self aware and again one of the best players in the world at what he does and so very rarely was it going to be a conversation about not selecting him. However, there's been conversations around hey, how are you like? Hey, you're off the mark here, how you're carrying yourself, etc. You got high and again, it's always easier when someone like Madison Hughes and Pinky got such high self virtues in a way, in the way they carry themselves, the level excellence that they walk in when they're off the mark it's. You know, those conversations are kind of easier because they're already so hard on themselves, they're already taking ownership and I think for any player listening to this.
Speaker 2:What you need to understand is that if you're blaming and you point the finger somewhere else, if you're taking that stance, you don't have the authority to make the changes that you need to to get where you want to go. Until you own it, until you take responsibility, you don't actually have the authority to actually change things. So that's just a bit off topic, but for those athletes that are listening, just a good little learning. And so I think though probably the if, but, like you just mentioned before, five years in the making, one of those conversations could be being had, and it's understanding that personality type. And, again, without putting somebody into a box, but realizing that they're so critical on themselves, how are they going to respond to this feedback?
Speaker 2:Okay, these, these ones here, what has been the how they respond to things previously? And you know, they, they, they, they think they can't do anything wrong, and then their response is defensive, and then you show them video and they're still debating. Well, no, this is why I did this, and and and. At that point it's like it's a different nature in conversation, and so, again, it's, the hard thing with coaching is it's an individual thing within a collective setting quite often so knowing how to address those individuals. But then also, if you set it up right at the front and people understand what your natural tendencies are and the team, when you're addressing the team in the heat of the moment, it's going to be your more natural tendencies that come through and yeah, hey, yeah, sorry, I'm a bit off the mark, I'm all over the place there, but no, I think it just really highlights the, the social, professional, on-field, off-field dynamics, what always that play for one individual, let alone 12 to 40, you know like it's.
Speaker 1:It's such a big thing and I always kind of lean on when, when those tough conversations come up, is I'm not necessarily. No, I'm not asking you to like what I'm saying, but I'm asking you to respect where it's coming from. And then, on the coach, if I I've had those conversations where I haven't been prepared enough and I and I've looked sloppy and I've, and then the athletes got every right to look at me, go well, hang on like you. Have you done your due diligence here? Well, maybe I have in my head, but the emotion of the conversation has probably taken it somewhere else. So really just digging deeper on that, that planning for a difficult conversation as Craig, 100% on that and thinking about which ways they could go.
Speaker 2:And probably you know, four times in a five you'll get it right in the sense of the way it will go. But have you thought about the two or three other ways it could? And yeah, as you bring that up, it's a good reminder for me. That preparation side and I think, if I look back at probably the toughest, actually selecting the Olympic squad, and there's one player that you know I didn't select. I didn't select seven or eight players, but there's one player that again and I regret this again one of the big regrets of my coaching career not selecting her for the Olympics, because she'd been a part of the team for the three years and she'd been in every team that won a trophy or been in the final and she was such a good blue brewery as a team would refer to that she added value off the field of ways that people didn't see and she never caused disruption to the culture or the harmony and the individual that I went with, who was a lot more. And at the end of the day, with my decision, the challenge for me, my regret, is I allowed my assistant coaches and my staff to influence me on one where I was in my gut I was like no, I need to go with her, but this one had been so dominant in an aspect that we didn't have in the squad not directly competing with the other individual, but to make up the balance of the squad. It was deemed better to go to this way, but my gut feeling was not to go with her, and this was just a term in whether one person was gonna be called an Olympian or not.
Speaker 2:So, having that conversation and then afterwards realizing I got it wrong, well, I believe I got it wrong and I can justify it with the numbers and the paper if I want to that, no, I got it right because look what she added to the team. But the fact was I knew and the individual I picked actually caused disruption in our culture and we had to manage that in Japan and and that was stuff that I didn't have to have my shouldn't have to have my tension on. I wouldn't have if I'd select the other players. So now, learning there is always seek counsel, always look at the numbers. But sport is not science, it's not, it's an art, it's a combination of both and different whichever lens you're looking through and when you and when you're working with people, it's you got you gotta. You don't realize that, again, it's not just black and white. It has never risen and that's one of my biggest regrets and we'll always be regret, because that cost that person the Olympic appearance so, so interesting.
Speaker 1:That is just. It's a lot. You know I can put myself in your shoes at that time and so it in really want to dig on this, so you pick this two. There's two points. You obviously had massive trust in your coaching staff and people to help and aid that conversations and I'm sure there's been many success stories of those conversations. Now, because of that, because of that incident, have you changed the way you now select a team?
Speaker 1:and the following no no, you know, dig, dig on that one. Have you changed your process or or no? Is it still still the same?
Speaker 2:no, it's still the same, I think I think what I like about Scott Robinson as an example and it's pretty well known out there is I never knew the all-black staff weren't a part of their selection process, but people that are cool to develop all these players and again, super rugby. But then you know, unify the group and get them all playing. Not every coach has a say on who select. Who select it. I found that really weird personally, and that changed a little bit in this last shake-up with Ian Foster and Joe Smith and Jason the right. But my understanding, again not being in that environment, but what I've heard again, again and from his own mouth, is like all his staff is involved in that selection process. Everybody's got a voice, and whether he takes that person's opinion a bit more serious than another, it's again that's up to him. But he's gonna make sure that his staff is heard and and that's that's where I want to start, because I want people to feel that this is their vision as much as it's mine. And and that's a cliche saying, but the reality is, if you don't actually listen, everybody wants to be heard, make, made feel important and again, if you do that, then even if you don't go with what they said.
Speaker 2:Through my own experience, it's been like they're behind you 100% away, because they, they, they feel like you made their opinion important, so I always start there, and then the only thing now, though, would be is like okay, I guess I wouldn't say as an added step, it's just am I having another one of those moments meaning going through okay, we've got the team, got a pen of selected. This is a difficult conversation. These are where we're now. Which way are we going? Why? How does it complement the group? All right, but what does she bring to the? You know that kind of thing. It's like no, I'm really happy with the balance here, but if there's a difficult conversation, then it's like okay, is it gonna be a moment like 2021 where I regret it, or am I not confident enough? So then I'm gonna go with? The majority would be yeah, so you went.
Speaker 1:I actually heard somewhere I think it was Hanson saying he's had conversations with players where he's just went look, mate, it's my gut, I'm going with it, and just been really honest with a, with a decision. We threw out all the metrics, everything out the window and went look, if this is from my gut and, at the end of the day, this is my job to make these decisions, and I guess you got to be really comfortable in your own skin to to go along with that and go well, okay, because I'm not sure how a player can really come back massively from that. Go well, this is, and everyone has a gut feeling on any part of their life. You know what I mean, and this is just part of it as well interestingly so well, exactly, you don't.
Speaker 1:And hindsight will is beautiful. So, in terms of you have this gut feeling. You have the difficult conversation with that player, which I'm sure was miserable for all because there was obviously. You naturally in your gut felt you should have went there. You went a different way. I've had experience as well, not on the Olympic level, but you still, at the end of the day, you're still dealing with that person who's feeling that hurt? And I went a different way and it backfired as well. Now, when the player you did select got a little bit disruptive. Now, two things were you potentially looking out for more disruption? Was there, was there a bias there? And was there a time where you were like maybe treated them slightly differently? And I don't want this conversation to come off as loaded, I'm just kind of thinking out my line when they were disruptive, it was like I really, really really should have picked this other person as well, like was it just compounded and yeah, and I didn't want that to be a loaded question that's not made.
Speaker 2:It's a. I think just to clarify up front was it was on hindsight that I knew that I should have selected the other person or the player, not in that moment, so I wasn't going into that conversation. I was going into the conversation, going yeah, I didn't have extreme confidence that I was, my gut was right and I think that's the where you know that. That that's the learning layer, one of the learnings. I think she wasn't disruptive, the player. I didn't see the disruption coming, so it wasn't like she was a bigger personality, younger player. I didn't expect to see that happen at the Olympics, especially after being selected when, quite honestly, you should have been not necessarily surprised because you back yourself, but like, wow, I did it Not. Yeah, I'm entitled to this kind of thing. And then again the disruptions around whether it was around playing, whether it was around well, it was all around playing, so it's a very easy one. And since the playing time and number and and yeah, so it was like not once was I thinking until on the last day of the Olympics, when I'm still dealing with this and we've already lost our freaking quarter final and I'm like what? Like it showed the maturity of a lot of the group that I was working with in a really good way and it gave me a wake-up call in the sense of, remember these, these young ladies or young men, depending on who you're working with, whether that your work with some 21 year olds that are again they, their maturity to handle certain conversations will be a lot greater than a 28 or 29 year old in the same situation, different area of life, maybe the other person's more developed to be able to handle that area, and then adversity that comes their way.
Speaker 2:But it was like yeah, so I never looked back and thought was I kind of being harder on it? Individual? I was picking them to play a short role, a power role, etc. And they were expecting to be selected like a Lauren Doyle or a Nia Tapper, where they had six, five, six years under their belt and there was so much trust from a playing execution standpoint. When they made errors I backed them more often than not to clean it up or to know that. That was one thought. This potentially, when you haven't had an experience of someone, then you're not going to have you, might you might be a little bit quicker to the making a decision or making a change, just because you don't know how they're going to respond.
Speaker 1:Off that until you've had experience with them long term, there's so many dynamics and also the real pressure cooker environment must bring out so much, and you probably see so much in individuals in that, let alone the camp. But when you're in in the environment, and how do you utilize your coaching staff and not necessarily your coaching staff, your wider staff in in those situations? Is it, is it all through you, can it go for? And this is probably context-specific as well, right? So essentially, the question is around the use of your staff to gain maximum alignment, because there's going to be relationships stronger with just different people and different, different personalities connect and not necessarily connect. That doesn't mean there can't be alignment, so just the use of maybe actually picking your staff in the first place, or can you even pick your staff? Are you told these are the people you're working with? Because I think that could be really helpful for coaches.
Speaker 2:Well, let me ask and it's me answer that one first grade, if you have the choice, pick your own staff.
Speaker 2:One of the most challenging experiences I had was I inherited a full staff and I come to love and adore three out of the five I inherited. Well, four out of the five and one caused me issues all year through. I learned in that I realized where I had weaknesses and vulnerabilities and I was falling short 100%. But I also found that there was no trust in a relationship because there was so much gossip going on the background where, if you have the chance to select, at least, then you know well I'm responsible for these decisions that have been made. You don't always have that. I haven't had that majority of the time, but I try to do as much as I can, moving forward, or there's a process that I'll go through in the sense of okay, now how do I build this relationship? One of the checkpoints that we need to make sure that we're actually gonna be aligned, but there's no different, obviously working with a different player, and so that, sorry, that's the answer, the first part.
Speaker 1:Secondly, prompt me again on the question well, yeah, the question was mainly around use of, use of staff and how do they, how do you they connect with the players or even the bigger environment? Just just overall use of.
Speaker 2:I think. I think it's really key, craig, because if I'm not trusting what that one person say, then I can't. I'm always watching who they engaging with. You know what's going on here and even if you give them a benefit of doubt, you give them another chance and another chance and another chance, which was what I did. And again, I want to acknowledge you know, I wasn't perfect in that and I made errors and I didn't do anything as I would like to and I let through that. But if I don't have the trust of the individual, then I'm always checking, my checking.
Speaker 2:So I was really fortunate in the last, the last year of the Olympic campaign, and there was a lot of different challenges with regards to we were going through COVID. There was all the political stuff, all the racial tension in the country at the time and different viewpoints, different lens that there's a lot of stuff going on in America in 2021, 2021, and what I was so grateful for is the. I ended up having nine staff, six full-time, including myself, so the five people that I had around me. I believe, a hundred percent of the time, that the message that would be portraying would be what I would be wanting and and it might not be one in the sense of where it's like they're not being a parrot of what I'm saying, but it's in the sense of well, have you had this conversation with that person? Have you addressed him meaning me or have you spoken to that player? Why are you talking about this over in this corner when they can't do anything about it? It's either Chris can change it or Emily can change it or that player can change it, because that's the person that you got the issue with, and so that was really nice.
Speaker 2:It took three years to get there, and that meant that when we had someone on ones, I would often go hey, matt Long, who was my assistant, can you jump in on this one? Because I knew he had a really strong relationship with this individual and had more insight at times than I did, and so he could, you know, feed in. But then other times it might have been our team manager or our physio. The cold tip nurse was a huge blessing to the team and again, just, she was. She's much younger than a mum, but she was like a mum to a lot of these girls, or a big sister.
Speaker 2:Let's just say that with a lot of maturity and wouldn't just go. Yeah, no, you're right, I can imagine what you're going through. No, she would check them in their, their shoes quite often, and so that, that, yeah, so that hopefully that answers the questions in the sense of there was different people's in these one-on-ones at times, some of them sometimes it was just me on the pitch one-on-one of the individual, or there was like hey, matt, can you have a conversation? Let's see what's going on with her. Or Emily, do you know what's going on there?
Speaker 2:and because of those relationships that you, that you say and I think if you're not using your staff in that way if that sounds wrong, but meaning if you're not utilizing your staff in that way, then you're really missing a trick and maybe that's actually an insecurity from your standpoint of, as I said before, there's a lack of trust here. But is that lack of trust coming from your insecurities or is it because there's actually evidence that for you not to trust that individual with what they're saying or what could be happening over there?
Speaker 1:no, that's I love that, just utilizing that and, yeah, not keeping everything as close. You kind of control everything you know, because then you lose control of most things and then yeah, that kind of a paranoia in a way kind of can take over. And I often find the athletic table or the physio table is the best place for information, because players just I know they're just something about the environment and maybe that's the that's the role of the trainers as well, it's not just the physical preparation, you know, it's like just often being a sounding board and, yeah, just find that those environments tend to just play as like sing like canaries over there you know like you can, it's just, I always find that interesting well they're in.
Speaker 2:Craig, I've seen that where it's arguably the most important decision that you're making your staff. Because I've seen it, because the person that spends the most time with the players and we were so fortunate with Brian Green with the men's team for so long he spent years. Violin came back to work the US 7s team and he was just brilliant new when the cuddle and you went to flip and whip them. And and the same with Nicole Chitmiss just really, really fortunate. But in the same environment as seeing where the players don't trust the physio not necessarily just their ability but in the sense of they just don't have an honorable relationship with them it can be devastating because they spend the most time with them.
Speaker 1:So yeah, it all comes down to relationships, doesn't? It is the dynamics. It all it call comes down just to building that rapport and that trust, and it's so important to get that, just the alignment and that connection, as we mentioned at the start. Now, hundred percent right. So shifting tax a little bit, and this is mainly from my point of view. 7s I find so anxiety inducing because the game is just back forward. A top team can get beaten by a mid-table team, sometimes a lower-table team. If we're talking world series, the, the error, the margin for error is so much smaller. So I always naturally gravitated to 15s because there's, I sense there's a bit more. You can kind of see what's gonna come along where 7s and I think that's the excitement of 7s.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, talk, talk to me about, like the 7s and as it is, as a sport, where it's going and how you find yourself being involved with that at the top level for many years now no, I think what I came to love about the 7s is that this is the pure nature of the sport, whether it's the breakdown, whether it's your ability to transfer a ball you know 10, 12 meters whether it's tracking someone in open spaces and be able to take care of them on your own. And again, our systems are set up where they they. They is grace and and we cover each other. But when you're because you need the whole team, because you've got so much space to cover and it should take defences an example if you're a meter or two off, that's gonna directly impact how quickly the opposition get on the front foot and what the people next to you do and they may, again, it may be the channel that they tried to explore and suddenly you're 45 seconds into a game, you're seven points down. You're, you're four and a half minutes into the game. You've touched a ball once, but you're finding yourself you're you're 17, five down, or you're 17, no down, just because of these, you'd say, minor errors, and 15s because you've got a second line and you got a third line and and, and you don't have that in sevens and especially all these teams going seven up now again, I just love that, that I think for me, what I come to love the most is the strategic element of the defense, whether you know, however, you, utilizing your seven players to make opposition have to outwork you.
Speaker 2:Rather than three, four phases, that's scoring, which has been the trend of sevens for 30 years, up until the last four or five years, and the men's game and the woman's game.
Speaker 2:Again, really, there's a big gap between the top two teams and the rest, which would, we would hope to see, change, building into what's it called building into LA.
Speaker 2:But that's what I've come to love and I think, craig, one of the things where I love the attacking side of the sevens, but what I really love about when you take Russia, you take the US men or US woman to try and beat the Australians better skill set, quicker understanding, just based off their background and what they've been exposed to but if you can make that team play at a speed that are uncomfortable and have to make decisions faster than they used to, suddenly you've been trained this way. You've been playing in a way that uses the whole field and is at a pace that is was uncomfortable for you but now is more comfortable. Suddenly you're finding errors in the fit decision quicker, they're not coming forward as much. So you're on the front foot, which means it makes it easier for you to make good decisions and control that space. And yeah, so I think that's what I I love.
Speaker 2:I think what is different and I guess in many ways a beautiful thing of 15s is we're especially defensively. You can have different strategies within your system that can shut down that momentum pretty quickly within a phase or two.
Speaker 1:It's hard to do in the seven side and so sevens are all under massive fatigue as well, which is an incredible. The athletes that the sevens game produces are just phenomenal when you just see that and the ability to do it across a tournament weekend and it maybe irony is. The hardest game is the. It's the last game, you know when, when fatigue kicks in and I'm really glad they got rid of that 10-minute rule. I don't know whatever that happened. The 10-minute half finals what was that all about? That was pretty sadistic.
Speaker 1:Who created that ruling?
Speaker 2:I think it was a Kiwi mate, because they knew if the Kiwis hit longer game they'd most likely beat us, you, know we are eventually right.
Speaker 1:Eventually. So must be. In the English you changed it, let's get it let's get it quickly, and so what does give us a look behind the curtain of a sevens training week? Are probably about a month out from a, from a tournament, so you're kind of I'm just thinking, maybe you're kind of tapering it up, you really getting your high volume, and what does? What does a sevens week look like in terms of a training an athlete?
Speaker 2:Cool, I'll share my I guess again, there's always context to it but my kind of template for that week before you taper the building which is roughly around the time that you're referring to and you're 100% right, because it's those decision making under fatigue and be able to handle that tolerance, which is a little bit different to 15s, and how it's up and down, up and down, up and down, and it's really an anaerobic endurance sport like just in a special way. So what I've found is, again, we can often have tournaments where it's three days back to back and that's the Olympic version Prior, even even building up to 2016, 2020, quite often we would have just two day tournaments and I love the two day tournament. I think it's better from an injury prevention standpoint I just again be up and down three times. I love it. So what I try to do is I try to mimic that. I try to get them where Monday, tuesday, they're up three times. So, yes, it'll be one gym training or an endurance session off feet just to protect the groins and the physical side of things, but still get the stimulus that we need and the mental stimulus, and then, to you know, 60 to 75 minute training sessions. That would be Monday, tuesday Monday might be a little bit shorter sessions by 10, 15 minutes, but high, high speed. So your reps might be even a little bit lower and then you know, it might be a little bit longer duration for the Tuesday, especially one of the sessions, just to get into some more two and a half minutes, three minute blocks, whether they have to stay in that fight, and we're looking at how clinical we can be but also how quickly can we adapt and get back on point and back in the moment as we need to.
Speaker 2:Then Wednesday would be a recovery day, physically, generally to be filmed, obviously there's, there's a couple of hours of work to be done. Recovery during that time. Thursday, repeat another three a day. Friday no, generally there'd be two trainings, two field sessions.
Speaker 2:So Monday, tuesday, thursday you'd have three, but one of them would be in the gym or would be a off-feet conditioning session and then, or a house of pain as I'd like to call it, and then, yeah, then a Friday would be those two sessions. Now, sometimes it's a maturity in the group is physically in there where they are in their journey as high we can tack on a Saturday session. So we go six. We go six days with that recovery session day in the middle, but then that's going to just change what you do from a recovery standpoint in your taper toward tournament If you're full time all the time and generally I'm sticking Monday to Friday to allow optimal recovery but also mental recovery. Because we travel so much, we don't want the players missing out on connecting with friends and socialising and events that often happen on a Friday or a.
Speaker 1:Saturday. No, that's a really good insight. Like so these players clearly get after it. You know it's tough. It's tough and I'm sure you're exposing them to tournament level and beyond, probably, and then sorry, just to clarify that, craig.
Speaker 2:That's the whole point of it is. They kind of get the landscape of, like you know, three a day is tournament time, three a day of training, but it's to mimic. They've got to get themselves up again and the intensities will change, but generally there's still it's all match intensity, whether it's quick or whether it's longer duration or what. But they've been through these weeks where it's doubled the volume that they'll experience in a tournament week. So they're not afraid of the fatigue factor or how they'll feel between games or tournaments. It becomes common pretty quickly.
Speaker 1:How do you bring a new player into that environment without breaking them down?
Speaker 2:What do you mean? We're in America, we've got numbers, we break them and we run them to them. I'm just kidding. Next Wrong sport Next.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because it sounds like if you I'm sure there's an on board and process of such, but it sounds like a lot, for how do people come in from maybe a college environment or even a club environment, make that step up without getting kind of disheartened or left behind or something like that? Just take to it, this is naturally, but how do you essentially, how do you on board a new athlete into an environment which is intense?
Speaker 2:Well, and this is where you physio and not everybody has access to a full-time physio but that key or your medical team critical the sense of okay, what's, if they're not doing it, then I need to be doing it. And I've got 25 players and I need to look after, or 35 and 15 set up, and the sense of okay, how can I push them to this tolerance level when I know that I don't know their background? You know they might have been played rugby two years, but they've been wrestling for seven or eight and they've been doing, or they've been doing, middle distance track and field. They can actually tolerate quite a bit. They're physically developed. So how do I find that information out? But then that's important. But then, for example, they're coming into a 10 day camp or a seven day camp. So what's really important is what have they done for the last six months? What have they done for the last two, three weeks? Because what I exposed them to is going to show and again, I had a heavy conditioning background for the first 10 years of coaching. Still obviously grateful for that because it gives me at least you know kind of more natural, kind of insight there.
Speaker 2:But then it's like okay, matt Long, for example, who I had with the woman. It's like we know, if we make the training week or the training camp, if we build it this way, then some of these players are going to be struggling by day two, let alone getting through today, seven or eight, or nine, 10. So then it's like, okay, but what's most important is that there's players coming in. Are they competing for this tournament or are they competing for a spot to be in the 25 for the next three months? Like what's the actual goal, what's the aim?
Speaker 2:And if they're competing for that tournament, then it's like, well, they need to go and we need to see how long they last, but with the consciousness of okay, we're not fully aware of what they've been through. Or or we are most of the time, we are, but occasionally that situation where we aren't. And and then there's obviously what's called physical indicators that you're aware of that if we do this over the next two weeks and four or five weeks time, they're going to be more vulnerable of these types of injuries if they haven't got this tolerance behind them. And so being conscious of that means that you can adapt. Same thing that, like I said before, the more work you can do upfront on setting the team up, the better. And but in America, in the American landscape and the college system, you've always you've got what? Five years of players at different levels of playing abilities, but they're all coming from different backgrounds in the sport of rugby and unlike maybe basketball or baseball, etc.
Speaker 1:Now for the Tuesday, thursday, saturday. You're more club related coach who is embarking on a seven season either in the spring or in the summer or whenever it might be what. Where would you prioritize, say, amateur club want to go compete on tournament on a tournament Saturday, have a really good weekend, want to win. Where would you start to kind of narrow it down on as a coach in those those parameters?
Speaker 2:in the sense of what.
Speaker 1:Yeah, where would your focus be? So I'm starting to plan a seven season. I'm gonna be seeing, I'm gonna see these amateur athletes on a Tuesday, thursday night. We wanna have a good tournament on this. So it's not just a social run around, but we wanna do well on a Saturday, just like right. These are the areas of the game you should have a think about to get maximum bang for your buck.
Speaker 2:Beautiful. I love it. And again, I don't think this matters whether you've got 10 days of prep, three weeks, six weeks, 10 weeks, those training sessions there's obviously clarity points, but make sure that you've got at least 20 to 30 minutes of match related intensity being played. So whether that's 90 second reps, whether that's a couple of three minute blocks on both nights so that they get used to that tolerance, because that's what's gonna cloud their mind. But then, from a tactical standpoint, for me and again, this is really just you can literally just go watch the Kenyan men or the Kenyan woman from August and the Kenyan men beat the Blitzbocker. They knocked them out of the Olympics, which was not expected, and the new head coach did a lot of great work. But the real, the background was that it's like how quick can we make this ruck on attack Meaning? And a lot of teams will talk about playing in threes. I talk about playing in fours because if my first receiver is not set up, if they're not in a position where they can choose either side of the ruck, then we're missing an opportunity, because quite often we can create a 2v1 or create a 1v1 down the blind side If that player, that first receiver is in a position that they can choose either side Again, just like they can be choosing to bounce back to the open side to make sure that our whole attacking line in spaces, rather than defenders being straight in front of them. So that's the key is if you can do, if you can get the speed of play where your rucks are three seconds and you hear it quite often three second rucks, three second rucks but you have your first receiver and you're nine and in position almost demanding the nine give me the ball. Why haven't you got the ball out? Then what you'll start to see is defenders won't be set and you'll be on the front foot, which gives you more time to make decisions. Second point is never set a ruck outside the 15s. If you can, again, go outside the 15s, use the space, use the width, but as soon as you realize that we're not going around them, fight to get back inside the 15s, because that creates two sides of the field, so it gives you a split pitch, okay, and then that's where it's like again, that fourth player comes into play and the supporting force, because then they can create those overlaps or those opportunities Defensively. So that's literally it on attack. You do that, you'll find yourself you just created time for your players to have more time to pass. You've created more time. You've just made it easier for the supporters to know what's going on. Quick decisions to respond off each other Defensively.
Speaker 2:For me it's all about literally can you push your defender to one side? Can you actually control them, even if you get to go backwards? Can you just keep them on one side? And then, from that point it's like can we set that ruck effectively, meaning can we just have two people taking care of it? However you play that ruck, whoever competes, up to you. But in the sense of, can we just have two people taking care of that ruck so that everybody else leaves it alone and bounce it out and gets their spacing so that we can come forward?
Speaker 2:If we're not coming directly forward off that breakdown, then again we're allowing the attack to be on the front foot and they're choosing more often what happens based off, again, them moving forward immediately rather than us moving forward and dictating or having influence on that play. So for me that's critical and often, whether I'm setting up and allow that and that should means that there's different spacing around the breakdown, or whether we're six and one and the sweeper's roles to protect those certain spaces or plug the holes. If you're not getting those spacings right where your quarter fenders again seven up, it might be two away from the ruck, three, four that are your quarter fenders. If they're not coming straight up, you're in trouble. If you're playing six and one, if it's not the first person away, he's second away, third away. If they're not coming straight up, the field, meaning square, then you're just leaving yourself vulnerable and you're not really playing. Attack on defense, which is sometimes the easiest way to attack, is without the ball.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, absolutely some golden nuggets there. I'm not sure we're gonna share this podcast to the end of the seven season. I might just keep that one in house.
Speaker 2:But no, check this slide.
Speaker 1:That was brilliant and you could tell. I think we could do a tactical podcast down the line as well. No, I think that's really really great advice for people going out there and just really just prioritizing areas of the game just to narrow the focus, and then often you find the players will have okay, these are the three things, or whatever it might be, we're gonna really really try and nail on any given weekend. That's another way to build that alignment. And also, in your training, celebrating when you see people doing that.
Speaker 1:Well, okay, maybe we did initially concede out wide or eventually conceded out wide, but on the four occasions we did come off the line square, which we were trying to do. Now, how can we do that for longer? So we're trying to break it down into where are those little wins to try and get the bigger picture. I guess I love that. Yeah, just well, to look. Wrap up, you are a man who often you can see yourself on LinkedIn and the things you share. Where do you get your learning from in terms of resources, what you use or utilize, what? Maybe a few other coaches can jump into as well and pick up a few hints and tips along the way.
Speaker 2:No, I mean I've been really fortunate with some of the mentors that I've. I mean, I say some of those mentors have been coaches that I've been employed by and I've worked under some great coaches. Obviously, I worked on the Mike Friday for a number of years and the guy called Matt Prowford who was with the Springbox and with the English set up for a while there, from the 15 standpoint, he's the individual that challenged me on those first year training sessions back in the day. Oh, nice, nice. And so you know, for me again, I've learned a lot from being under there, totally, but then at the same time we always need to be learning. So but when you get to get to again a national role, it's like, well, the Olympic Committee actually did a really good job of placing somebody, a performance advisor, in each of the teams or in each of the environments to challenge you on your thinking constantly and to you know, have you thought about this, have you thought about that? And so that's real in the moment. Mentorship that's, you know, that's challenging your reflection, it's getting you to think deeper or more intentionally, and so that's always the optimal when you've got access to that. But and that can be someone that can be hiring a coach, that can be hiring a mentor, or paying somebody or adding value to somebody so that they'll spend the time with you to mentor you in the area where you need and this is really a life-teaching rather than just rugby but in the area where you need help. But what I eventually and this is what I share a lot with the leaders that I work with or when I'm doing these team building sessions, et cetera is that you actually, if you might not have access to these people that you wanna be mentored by or that you want to learn from, physically you might not be able to afford to or they might not even be available, but quite often they're on podcasts like this. Quite often they've written a book or they have done a group of different teachings that you can get access to, which costs you 20 bucks or costs you 100 bucks, versus costing you five grand to spend a day with them or 15 grand is for them to mentor you through the year. So that's where, again, when I look at from a strategic planning standpoint, you look at books like what's it called Atomic Habits, and when you look at character standpoint, there's a lot of books again like Extreme Ownership from Jocko the old Navy Sealfeller.
Speaker 2:There's another book called what's it called the no Complaining Rule, which is really an honor principle, where if you've got an issue, then you don't complain to anybody apart from the person that can change it and you come with a solution. Now, I don't agree with it. You should always come with a solution. The reason being is, sometimes you waste a lot of time. Yes, you need to be thinking in that way and it's more ideal if you can bring a solution, but this whole theme of this book is to remove gossip from your environment. So it's called the no Complaining Rule and for me, that was the biggest impact on our team and we'd do checkpoints every whenever I felt it was needed on this, in the sense of are we addressing issues that we have with a person that can actually change whether it's the individual that you got an issue with and whatever or the coach because of what we're doing? You know that was a really, really good resource for me.
Speaker 2:I tend to look at podcasts of people that I trust or are recommended by people that I trust.
Speaker 2:I don't like to consume too much, because the more you can consume, then you can get distracted or all over the place, and understand that how you think comes down to what you can consume, the people that you're listening to the most. So I would recommend or encourage people that what are the traits that you wanna see in people? So those are the people that you obviously wanna build your team. So what resources can you look to help you develop, as a coach, your cultural side of things? But then also, who are those coaches? Or who are those not necessarily coaches, but who are those individuals that have had a lot of the similar experiences? They might be a completely different sport, might be in business, but they've had to manage people. They've had to go through a lot of adversity. What have they learned through that? And identify those people and study them for a while, rather than just going from one to the next to the next, because you're studying them, because they've got proven fruit or results in their lives that you like would be my recommendation.
Speaker 1:Right, and it's amazing what I find when you reach out to people. Well, I use LinkedIn as a resource massively. Again, people you align with, you've watched for a while, you've heard about, you've known, and it's amazing, if you reach out to people, how often they get back to you. It's like, don't be afraid. And if they don't, okay, oh well, nothing lost. And that's why a lot of my conversations very much like this one.
Speaker 1:I know we've somewhat crossed paths in the past, but reaching out to people because coaches tend to want to share, they like to share and they like to build over connections. So, yeah, don't be afraid to do that either. That would be my last advice, but this podcast is about you, mate, and I think you've done a wonderful job at just sharing some of the tougher times but, importantly, how they can be overcome and, I think, in how they can continue to be overcome and how they might pop up again in a different environment. I really want to celebrate those moments and appreciate people coming on and being willing to share. So I really really appreciate it, chris.
Speaker 2:That's my pleasure, mate, and if I could just share the finish off. I think one of the biggest things that in the last couple years of my playing career that really held me back was that fear of failure or the fear of doing something that might be rejected or might again it might not go as I planned or I might look foolish or whatever. That behind thing that's controlled in that mindset and it's something that what you just highlighted there is literally putting yourself out there, making yourself, because for a lot of people it's not uncomfortable to reach out to people, but for others where, again, why would they? I don't want to bother somebody, but you'll find, more often than not, people actually those who are genuine, actually do want to help, and especially with people that come with a humble spirit.
Speaker 2:People will normally give the time of day and often I've sat down with people for lunch that are worth and again, this wasn't necessarily to do with rugby, but it was definitely from a leadership standpoint and I'm like for me to sit here and have lunch with you it's probably like five grand in the sense of if you were actually at work Now, last set up and things are running for themselves. But I couldn't afford that. But I bought them lunch and that was meant to be a 45 minute lunch that turned into two hours just because they cared and actually they want to help people or we want to have the same day. There are people that really want to help people, so I just want to echo what you're saying. They've made and that's key.
Speaker 1:You make me feel bad. Now I'm across borders, across countries. I can't buy you lunch, but what I can say is a massive thank you for your time. It's been a massively valuable hour, not only for me, but I know those people who are driving the car in the gym, walking the dog, doing whatever they're doing because they're here for a reason and the reasons they want to get better and to learn from people like yourself. So a big, big thank you, mate.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I'm glad you made it in. Thank you, and I'll thank you up on that lunch when I'm on your side of the country.
Speaker 1:Perfect, it's on me.