Unlock the secrets to transformative coaching with Riki Tahere, who charts a course from the culinary arts to spearheading rugby talent growth at Canterbury Rugby Union. Our discussion reveals the surprising parallels between a chef's precision and a rugby coach’s strategic acumen. We share a feast of ideas, from the importance of creating a memorable player experience to the evolution of coaching styles that now favor collaboration and empowerment over rigid direction.
This episode navigates the challenges and nuances of coaching, with reflections on transitions, accountability, and the continuous pursuit of self-improvement. Riki provides an insider's perspective on team dynamics, the delicate art of player selection, and the vital role of communication, drawing on poignant examples from rugby's elite. We examine how understanding individual stories is key to fostering team success, and how embracing our vulnerabilities can lead to profound growth, both on and off the field.
Riki's candidness and our deep dive into the craft of coaching culminate in a powerful message of curiosity and integrity. It's a journey that underscores the value of personalized coaching, the power of constructive relationships, and the courage to rethink and innovate. Join us as we share wisdom from the frontlines of rugby coaching and offer inspiration for coaches and leaders in all fields to reflect, learn, and thrive.
Unlock the secrets to transformative coaching with Riki Tahere, who charts a course from the culinary arts to spearheading rugby talent growth at Canterbury Rugby Union. Our discussion reveals the surprising parallels between a chef's precision and a rugby coach’s strategic acumen. We share a feast of ideas, from the importance of creating a memorable player experience to the evolution of coaching styles that now favor collaboration and empowerment over rigid direction.
This episode navigates the challenges and nuances of coaching, with reflections on transitions, accountability, and the continuous pursuit of self-improvement. Riki provides an insider's perspective on team dynamics, the delicate art of player selection, and the vital role of communication, drawing on poignant examples from rugby's elite. We examine how understanding individual stories is key to fostering team success, and how embracing our vulnerabilities can lead to profound growth, both on and off the field.
Riki's candidness and our deep dive into the craft of coaching culminate in a powerful message of curiosity and integrity. It's a journey that underscores the value of personalized coaching, the power of constructive relationships, and the courage to rethink and innovate. Join us as we share wisdom from the frontlines of rugby coaching and offer inspiration for coaches and leaders in all fields to reflect, learn, and thrive.
Hello and welcome back to the when Coaching Goes Wrong podcast. First of all, I want to say a massive thank you to you, the listeners. The first couple of episodes have been really well received. I've had many, many calls and texts regarding how important people have found that other coaches are sharing and how they're willing to share more and also just be a bit vulnerable. Fails are okay. Failures okay as long as you reflect and learn and find how we can all get better together. So, yeah, a big thank you for that. If you're ever interested in more contact coach work, you know I'm on Instagram and I'm also on Facebook all the social media but I also have some coach education webinars you might be interested in and you can find them at thecontactcoachcom.
Speaker 1:On this episode, I'm joined by Ricky Tahere. He is from Canterbury, new Zealand, very experienced coach. He's also had a really cool career involving being a chef and in different environments, so this is a pretty cool one. Ricky's currently the game developer with the Canterbury Rugby Union, so he's very prominent in one of the world's best rugby environments and he's also the director and founder of the Global Draft. So why don't we jump into this one? Because I know you're going to enjoy it. Hey, ricky, thanks for joining me on the podcast. How are you doing, mate?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm doing real good. It's an honor to be on your pod. So, yeah, looking forward to our conversation.
Speaker 1:Thank you, look, I really appreciate people joining and sharing the story. It's all about giving bits and nuggets for people to go away with and learn from, and also myself. You know, I'm very selfish in that sense, like I like to learn as much as anyone. So, hey, mate, just tell me a little bit about your background and where and how you got to where you are now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess the short story is I was a chef, hated sheffing, still had a massive passion for rugby, decided to go and study and then now I went for the Canterbury Rugby Union. But I think, like most people's stories, it's a little bit a little bit for me to get where I am. It was actually a little bit of a longer journey to what it sounds like. So, but yeah, I'm really privileged and honored to be working for such a great brand, I guess, or a rugby union like Canterbury Rugby. It's always been. I think, when you think of Canterbury Rugby, the legacy, the people that have come from it, the coaches that have come out of the Canterbury region yeah, it's a real honor to be working for the, for the union.
Speaker 1:Awesome. And so what do you do? What's your day to day job?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'm a what we call game developer and so part of my role is around and probably the large chunk of my role is around coach education. So developing our coaches from our we rippers, from when they first start, all the way up to a kind of our pre performance coaches, trying to get them onto that journey to becoming professional, semi professional coaches, so a real range of coach education stuff. And then also deal with player development within the junior and teenage grade. So delivering skill camps, going out there, doing tackle clinics and scrum factories and all the good stuff that we love around rugby. So, yeah, that's my, my day to day. And then, yeah, a little bit, a little bit of podcasting as well with Canterbury Rugby, just trying to figure similar to you, a little bit selfish, talking to some epic people, but also trying to figure out how do I best support our community? If they can't come to us, can we go to them?
Speaker 1:Yeah, what a what a brilliant concept. And the thing is the world's getting smaller now, right, so what an amazing opportunity to reach so many, so many different people, which is which is awesome. So, hey look, I want to. I want to tap into. You mentioned there, you were a chef like come on, there must be something in there where you from those days although you said you didn't necessarily enjoy it. There must be something you can take from that environment what has been potentially transplanted into rugby or or which served you well in in a rugby environment.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's funny you mentioned that around like, what are the transferable skills, right? So I think there's, there's quite a few. For me, food was a passion, like I loved cooking, I love being around food, I love eating food, like most of us. Like it was one of those, one of those things. And so at one school finished I was like, well, what am I going to do? So I thought I'd become a chef.
Speaker 2:Becoming a professional rugby player back in those days wasn't a real thing. So, yeah, ended up becoming a chef and I think the biggest lessons I learned along the way was around, probably, a sense of excellence, like, and what that meant as a chef. And it's really important to understand that part, because if you understand what excellence is, your whole purpose is to create memorable experiences for your customers that are coming in. So they're coming into a restaurant and it could be for anniversary. They could be proposing, it could be like a business deal, it could be something that generally, when people go out for dinners, we thought about them in a way of like, how can we make their experience a memorable experience?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so that transferred into my coaching. How can I make what I do so if I treat the players like a customer? How can I make their experience enjoyable? How can I make a long lasting kind of impact on them so that they remember something or they just enjoy their time? And we talked to coaches a lot around, especially with our junior rugby coaches. You're not here to coach them to become the next All Blacks or the next Crusaders. You're here to coach them to fall in love with the game. And I think that sometimes does get missed that love of like, why we first started playing like it was probably our dads and they were teaching us some rubbish, drill, tackling a tackle bag or whatever it was. But you'd love the game like, you fell in love with it, and I think that there sometimes can get forgotten about. So yeah, I've just brought that passion that I had for food and kind of implanted it into my coaching, I guess, or the way that I approach my coaching and my role.
Speaker 1:What a really really cool way of looking at it. Like just ensuring that anyone who comes into your environment a coached environment is like like, really feels like they get in the kind of A-star treatment, right, like everything your teacher name has been thoughtful and thought about and caring, like I really really liked that principle. Actually, that was that's a nice way to look at it because you're right, when you go out for dinner it's usually you always remember. You always remember a good meal and you always remember a bad meal, right, you know what I mean and that's and it's probably similar like I, if I ask the question to people, tell me about your best teacher or your worst teacher, you can usually pretty quickly rattle off and I guess you want to be on the right side of that question. Now, that's cool. So when? When did you start coaching? Like, at what point did you transfer from playing into coaching and what was that transition like?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was funny. You asked that question because we had to do a thing here where it was like, kind of, tell us at work a little group exercise and, you know, tell us about yourself and who you are. And I was going back through some old photos because I was creating the slide deck and I found this photo of me at high school I think it'd be close to like 20 years ago like coaching a basketball team. So back then I was already doing like most of us we coach at school, some junior teams and I was like that's pretty crazy that my first coaching experience was way back then and so it was. I didn't start coaching properly until after we gave up. I gave up kind of the knives and the apron and that was maybe 2011-ish around then.
Speaker 2:And the reason why I got into coaching was I was playing, got back into playing rugby again after a number of years out and I was just playing with my friends, as we all do. But I didn't enjoy or I wasn't enjoying the Saturdays as much as I used to Like the actual trainings. I enjoyed the trainings more than the competition on the Saturday. Saturday was me getting like I had to play rugby to get to the beers, like that was my thought, and what was making you, what was your feelings there?
Speaker 1:Did you do you now know why, or did you know at the time why actually the competition part wasn't the most exciting part? Did you understand that at the time, or was it just you kind of went along with it?
Speaker 2:I think what it was like the body hurt like Monday, tuesday, like just was sore, and by the time Saturday came around I'd probably only just got right and then I had to go through that whole period. So the body was sore and I wasn't conditioned as well as I probably should have been. But it was probably the fact that like I still had that competitive edge but I didn't have it all as much as I wanted on the field, like I. You know I could, I could take it or leave it. But I have reflected on it and like I knew that the the dream of becoming a professional rugby player is like completely dead.
Speaker 2:But there's another way that I could probably, like the goal could still be the same, but shift a little bit, like if I wanted to become a professional coach, a professional sports person, coaching might be a good route. And considering that I enjoy the trainings more than I enjoy the game, that's when I started to like kind of pivot into going okay, well, let's dig in here and let's have a crack. What does this all mean? And so that I guess that fire for cooking had vanished to a point where I want to follow this other, another passion of mine, which was sport and which was rugby. So that's when I went to university and studied a bachelor's of coaching degree and that's when my eyes just like kind of opened up to the world of like, oh, this is coaching, I get it, I get it now, and that was then when I was like thought I had it. And I still, even now, I still don't know if I fully understand coaching, but it's the most journeys that you constantly practicing, isn't it?
Speaker 1:For sure. So how old were you at this stage when you you took on your first, your first kind of official coaching rugby coaching gig? Was it? Was it at university as part of a course, or was it before that?
Speaker 2:It was probably. It was probably at university, so probably we're doing about 25, yeah, 24, 25 at that stage. Coaching who was? I think it was St Thomas's second 15 team and like that there was a hell of an experience. Like it was would have one training a week, would play on a Wednesday and I'd say 40% of our players were rugby league players Okay, rugby league on a Saturday for their, their club because, but they still enjoyed playing rugby.
Speaker 2:So they played with your mates on a Wednesday and, like they had the the absolute raw talent of like they knew how to run under his lines, they knew how to like suffocate the ball, but they didn't understand the laws of the game and so that there was like a massive like barrier to like try and coach these.
Speaker 2:Like you have to roll away from the tackle, like when you get back onto your feet, you can't. You have to like literally have no hands on the like on the player before you go for the ball, when, like you're teaching that like stuff that we got taught you know under tens, under elevens like these, these boys hadn't been taught it and so you had to coach that through to them. You had to coach them like working as a team, like it's not just one off running, that we're, we're not. We want to play an invasion game. We don't want to play a contact, crash and bash style game. So it was like a yeah, it was a real eye-opening challenge there. And then obviously also, you know teenage boys how reliable they are, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've been there. I've been one. You know how did you so what? I tell you what. As a, as a new novice coach at 25, having to be thrown in, or choosing to be thrown in at the deep end. Regarding, like, how do you literally teach people a new sport? Yes, the similarities, Like how, how did you overcome that? Or did you overcome that?
Speaker 2:Um, I don't think I did Like if I, if I'm being real honest, I think I just coached the way that I'd been coached, like most of us. When we first started out coaching like we just I still had probably a player's lens to the game, like I was probably more of like thinking that I was still a player, and like I'm a mentor rather than a coach, like when you do this, this is what you're trying to do. Like I understood the coaching principles and and coaching, or at that stage I felt like I understood it, but it was probably yeah, it was probably. In that year I did some real deep learning and understanding around. Actually this, what I was doing, I thought was coaching, but it wasn't really coaching. It was just helping the lads try and be a little bit better each week, rather than probably what I do now.
Speaker 2:When I'm coaching teams or people like I was way more direct. I was telling them what to do. I was probably doing more showing than letting them do it and explore it. I was I probably talked way more than anything, and now it's I'm probably gone the other side, where it's probably more like questioning, like how did that feel? What could we have changed? Have you thought around any other ways that we could potentially do it, like those types of like guided discovery questions? I didn't probably have in my back pocket like I do now? Yeah, I don't know if that answers your question, but I think that's probably where I was at at that stage of like real, like almost like a not a dictator, but maybe a friendly dictator if there ever is one.
Speaker 1:It's so, so interesting. You say that because I've I reflect on my own coaching as a younger coach and also many conversations I've had. It's a very similar concept, that when you first go into coaching, it's like, right, I must know absolutely everything. I'm at the top of the tree here and I I'm going to tell everyone everything I know about the game, whilst not knowing this. But I knew very little, you know, I thought I knew a lot and I didn't know a lot. And it was just such an interesting thing.
Speaker 1:And I had a conversation with a coach actually last night around that, how I personally went in with a mindset, no, like, look, I'm here and I also want to prove to you how much I know stuff and this is how you do it and this is how we're going to do it, without taking into consideration actually what the needs of the group were and also what essentially my needs were. You know, and where. Where was my role? And I think it's it's a pretty well-trodden path of early coaching and just trying to be in that dictator and because you just want to show everyone how much you know and you don't want to. You don't want to be vulnerable, right.
Speaker 1:That's the common thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think like reflecting, like if I even like to move the most recent campaign that I've just done, like coached a Canterbury 15s team that took on the New Zealand Heartland team, and I think there was there was a lot of things there where we probably could have done a lot better, and I think that's the that's the key, or one of the keys to being a good coach is being reflective, like how can you constantly improve? Like if we're asking that of our players to be to constantly improve, as coaches, we have to constantly improve, and so there's probably a bit in that campaign where we wanted to make the team really feel like it was their team, like it was the players team. We're here like our position as a coach, the same as way as your position as as a flanker or your position as a number 10. We're just here as coaches. We're all in it together. There's no real hierarchy. We'll help, guide where you need it to go, we'll just support it, we'll put some frameworks around you, all that type of stuff.
Speaker 2:And maybe we didn't quite get that balance, that balance right, but also maybe we we didn't, we could have held the players a little bit more accountable, and so we as a coaching group, we probably reflected back on on that that part around, like how could we have improved that a little bit better? And like, for example, we we only had a short time to prepare to take on the team. So we had two trainings that we wanted to do, essentially three hours on the grass, but we wanted to do it on a Saturday, sunday, and the players came to us after the Saturday training and asked if they could look, can we have our Sunday and then we'll come together Tuesday and we'll just nail out the training on the grass of what we want to do. And we're like sweet, we'll, you know, have a discussion about it with the group. If the group wants to do that and you guys feel like that that's the best way we can be prepared for for Wednesday, then yeah, we're, we're on board as coaches. And they came back to us and they said yep, yep, we're good to go, and like yep, and so we left it to them.
Speaker 2:And now I'm not saying that like, regardless of the results, that was the the right thing that we should have done. But you have to kind of reflect on those those moments around, like was that best for team, or was that best for the occasion? And now, the reason why they wanted to take Sunday off is because it was the finals for the South African final, and so you just like, look, we get it, we understood it. But was that best for best for team and best for for? Or was it best for the moment the fact that you wanted to watch it with your mates and have a couple of beers and all that type of stuff? And so they were like, no, no, no, we're, we're all good. So that was their decision. But yeah, again, I go back to like, as coaches, could we have done, done something a bit, a bit more to go to make them more accountable in that, in that space?
Speaker 1:And what, interestingly, a very hypothetical what. What do you think and potentially could have happened if you stuck to the Saturday, sunday and now? Obviously I appreciate, like you, you don't know the answer, but where does your, where does your gut take you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's. I think we still end up at the same place, like, potentially, like a lot of our to add a bit more context a lot of our players had probably three to four weeks off rugby already and so and the team that we played had just come off the a lot of them had just come off their season, so that's still pretty match ready. Our boys were still fit, They'd still keep their fitness up, still doing their running blocks and gym and stuff like that. But we probably didn't. We might have been a little bit more cohesive as a, as a unit, as a team. So the other team they came to they assembled roughly the same amount they assembled on the Sunday. They had double trainings, plus they were living together. So there was heaps of like rural, like team building, cultural type of stuff Able to spend more time going through. Potentially they had more time to go through scenarios and all these types of stuff.
Speaker 2:Would we? Did we set a goal to go out and win. If you put on the Canberra badge, that's always a goal. Like that's a big focus is like, whoever we play, it doesn't matter who we play Like we want to. We want to win because we know everybody wants to beat Canberra also, and so that that was a goal that we wanted to come away with a win. But we also wanted to make sure, like our theme was around running it back, and what that meant was to, if you, we didn't want anybody to come to this team and have any regrets around any decisions that they made around either taking part in the, in the squad or on field stuff. We wanted them to just go out and play with the freedom that they, that they had, like they're the reason why some of these boys are in the Crusaders Academy.
Speaker 2:Some of them had been selected for NPC. Some of them had been training with the NPC squad throughout the whole season, and so it was just like look, we know that you're a talented player. We're not going to put so much structure around you that we're going to be playing this map and that map. We only had two, three maps and the whole purpose of the maps was just like to have some framework, but they didn't have to step to it. They can do whatever. That like if you didn't think it worked, didn't work, then try something new. Like you guys have the talent and the skill set within, within the group, to go out and just play.
Speaker 2:And so I think we we managed to achieve that part Like some unreal tries, some really unreal parts of like passages or play players, that their superpowers just came to life around, like getting the head over the ball and getting turnovers. Our line out was functioning really well, so our hookers had a good day at the park, our jumpers, our lifters were doing their things, our midfield was was going brilliant. But yeah, there's that thing around like if we stayed together, like could we have come away with a win If we had another two hours to just do some team connection stuff, could we have been a little bit closer than what it was? Maybe, but like I don't think that was yeah, for us as a coach, we're just as a coachy group, we're just like well, should we have held them accountable or should we not have held them accountable? Oh, that's really interesting and like I think you can already already sense that you are a reflective coach, your coaching teams are reflective coaches.
Speaker 1:Now, this, this podcast, is designed to be a celebration of when things don't necessarily go to plan. It's cool, obviously, when coaching goes wrong, but it's it's a play on words of like just actually understanding that it could go wrong. But with a reflective piece, it could go wrong. With a reflective piece, it could be the most invaluable coaching moment you had, whether you see it or know it at the time. Who knows? But I want people to feel comfortable with the word failure, because sometimes failure is the is the absolute start of growth. Should you want to, so, is there anything in your coaching background where, or previous experiences, or something you've been involved with where you're like, ok, that certainly didn't go as planned or that failed, and what? What did that look and feel like?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, like most of us, like there's so many different mistakes that we've made along the way. I go to like one half time speech. We're playing in a in a tournament down in Southland and I was coaching a, a Cults or under 21 Kennery Moldy team, and we're playing at the South Island Tournament and we're we made it into the finals and my half time speech and it's probably where my where I put the most emphasis on winning like, how important that was, where actually we should have been focused more on like, sticking to our processes. We know what the opposition is going to bring and we and how do we adapt where? That's where I probably got the tunnel vision of like was so close to like winning this and you can see the gap of like where they need to focus and I think what, what happened there is at my half time speech a Taro Moldy had a this unreal number eight and he was just we couldn't contain him, like we were just he was running through us making 20, 30 meters each carry, and so I said if we want to win this game, we need to put this guy on his ass. Like we need to stop him. And so the whole focus then just became on this one person. And then as and this is how talented he he was his first three carries the boys. That exactly what I said.
Speaker 2:Then he just started offloading the ball. He's like, well, I'm not making meters, but they're putting two on me now, so now I'm going to offload the second one Now they're now they're cutting us, they're getting him behind us and they're playing this really free flowing game with scrambling, barely holding on, and it's just like, like, from there onwards, I think like we just they, they tried to make the adjustment, which was really good. They're like, okay, well, we can't do that because he's offloading. So then he's just like I've got them now. So like he's like one on one, he's, he's making his meters and then they go on, add to and he's offloading, and then they go through and we just like, we're, I think that bus ride, because we bus rode home and that's a thing, it was like a six hour bus ride and that there was just filled of just like, like obviously the disappointment, but also the there was a sense of pride. Like you know, we got second, so it's there's nothing to nothing to be upset about, but, yeah, the fact of like the reflection back home was just like I'm, I'm I'm not going to be upset about it, I'm I messed up here.
Speaker 2:Like I let the team down with my halftime speech, like because I made the focus so much on one person, so much on winning, rather than let's be solution. Solution focus, like how do we actually get, how do we stop him from getting the ball rather than him having the ball? Like that would have been a way better problem to solve versus like well, if he gets the ball, that's put two on him and then he's bigger in. So they did that, and so that there's was one around how important your messaging is, how important your language is and you have to be really considered as a coach, around the, the message that you give people, because as a coach, you're in a role of power and leadership, right and so, and influence and so if you, if you tell them this is how you want them to play, and they do it that way, well, it's only, it's only you to blame, and so I should have that, I should have that blame. I let the end said to the boys like look, I, I let you down there.
Speaker 2:My halftime message wasn't good enough and I think the players respected that, the fact that I was the one that, not that, or that I showed a sense of like, ownership on that, where it could have been quite easy been like you guys lost us this game, like I, why did you not do this? Why did you like I should have done? Like okay, that's on me. I think that's where I learned probably you have to take as a coach, like it's not if they're not doing something, it's because of you. But I think Eddie Jones maybe at the moment he's not the best person to be using as an example, but it's a pretty cool message that he puts out around like if I tell them once and they don't do it, and I tell them like it's the way that I'm either saying it to them that's not understanding it, and then if I do it twice, then I really have to look around like how do I then actually get the message through to the person? Like? I found that part of what, like after reading his book really enlightening and kind of made sense to me.
Speaker 2:And then probably your most recent lesson that I learnt is around understanding and like the detail, and when I talk about detail is like I think we've all sent an email right out to someone and it's like you read it over and like the grammar is terrible, you've missed about something and that's really. I think it's really important that you have a good understanding of the detail. And the reason why I bring that up is we're sitting down with the Canterbury XV team. We were doing our, going through our maps and, as a back, trying to tell forwards and a short man line out this is how we're going to go and I want this person to go here and then they tell us well, that's not possible. So perspectives really key and understanding that details really key around.
Speaker 2:Like what does it? If we get tackled here, who's going to go clean that? Right, because it can't be this person because they're going to be there. It can't be this person because of that and so, and if that happened a couple of times, our 10, I think we're going through a map that had a fire. It was supposed to be a five man line out map and I had six players in the line out. Now that's like a like they went through my eyeballs. That went through my forwards coach eyeballs. That went through when we got together as a whole coaching group taking them through the map. That went through them and then it wasn't, and it got past all of us and it wasn't till we actually sat down and the team meeting going through the map, going these when we get onto the grass we're going to be going through this map, blah, blah, blah, and then our 10 goes. So is that a five or a six man line out?
Speaker 2:you want me to call and I'm just like I was like, I was like and so what's cool about that story? Because I think, like every time you fail, I think it's a cool experience because you've just you've learned something new, right? So the fact that he actually spoke up and or had the courage to speak up and be like do I really call that because he would have, he would have just called that anyway and then been like this doesn't look right. But we ended up workshopping. It's been like okay, you're like alright, sweet, well, who's actually who's gonna be the best person? Like as a group, who's gonna be the best person in that line out, then like out of our jumpers, and so that they then let us.
Speaker 2:We shifted it around and fix up the maps. And then we're like sweet, so does that look good to everybody? Like, took it, then I started passing it through like the leadership group, through our drivers, back through the coaches and then present and then back out to the, the whole group, and be like here's our five man map. This is what it's supposed to look like and this is how it's supposed to go, so showing a little bit of vulnerability, but yeah, but you also have to make sure, like some of these players like the way that they learn, the way that they understand.
Speaker 2:Like if you don't have your detail right and then, if you're not, don't have the courage or the vulnerability to put your hand up and say, shit, yeah, I've messed us up here, that's a big that could be. That could almost discredit you as a coach a wee bit, I reckon. Or like your trust value could go down and be like okay, I've messed up here. Be like no, you can quite easily shut them down. To be like no runner is what it looks like up there in the other light, like they're not going to work.
Speaker 1:No, that's brilliant and I actually find that as well. So I coach at Yale University, obviously a very it's an elite academic institution, elite worldwide elite institution for academics, and so the people who come here are very, very switched on. Now the rugby is. You could categorically call it grass for each rugby. But I have got to be so sharp with what I deliver to them because if it's slightly, they're always going to ask why. They remind a bit in a very intellectual way. They're like my toddlers, but like in terms of why, why, why, but in an intellectual way, so like tell me, tell me more about that or what, just some really, really interesting conversation around that. And I I've been caught out as well with kind of going through the motions, particularly when I first came over here just thinking, once again, I, I know we're rugby around here, so I'm gonna, we'll just, we'll just do this. And then someone who's played the game for five minutes is asking me some deep questions, all because they want to understand. That's exactly why they're not. They're not there to challenge in the sense like cut authority or anything like. They genuinely have a thirst for knowledge and what I found is one.
Speaker 1:Everything I present now or create now has got to be extremely well thought out and not only with me, and I have to have those conversations when I have new coaching staff join going. You're gonna have students here who are gonna really, really challenge you and don't be upset by that, you know, because sometimes in America there's this kind of coaches king kind of thing. Like you, you just do what I say, like my mind, your body, you just particularly from other sports, like American football like you run this route, you run this play and you, just you just do that job. So sometimes the coaches come over with a, with a perception that I'm gonna say something and then you guys will do it. But so I pre-warn our coaches, who I am very selective, who I bring into the environment, but it's like no, these guys will absolutely challenge you and they're not being disrespectful, they're not being rude, but they just have a real thirst for knowledge.
Speaker 1:So I I have become an infinitely better coach being in in this environment because it's taught me the need for detail, as you were mentioned, taught me the need for, for rationale, and that's only made me better. But that's come through a very similar experience about like kind of almost being called out and it was like have to scramble for the answer, and I was. I never want to be in that situation a year like ever, but I want to be on top of it and on top of that and, much like you did there, bring them in, bring them in the fold. This is what we're thinking about. What are your thoughts? And then going from there.
Speaker 2:But I think that's that's really key for coaches to understand perspective, like from what you're seeing, from like because you were so removed from the game, right, like we, as much as we say we're in tune to the game, we're watching completely different stuff to watch what the players are looking for and what they're watching that, under fatigue, heart rates through the roof, like all the chemicals flowing through their body, we're not too sure, like where their mindset is. Like are they in the zone or are they not in the zone? Like these types of things are happening, are they playing with pain? Are they not playing with pain? Like they've got all these environmental barriers in front of them? And then we're like did you not see like the space out there? And you're just like three men, one you're like, well, no, probably they didn't. Because, like, if you actually looking at the tape, like the guys blowing, or like he's just like I, just he's just focusing on, like I just need to catch this ball, I just need to carry, because the last ball that I caught I dropped.
Speaker 2:And I think the perspective of like we can, we're seeing it from like a drone view or from like such a removed view that we can see that we've got the time and space to see opportunities. Some of our players don't have that time and space, and so how we how we as coaches coaching that, but also how we as coaches showing some empathy around, like actually having an awareness, are going alright. Well, are we sitting down next to our players around then blast them and being like, hey, when you get into this, like talk me through what in this passage of play, what's happening, or what you're saying, and so, like what you're saying, and then also have a look at on the other side of the ball around and you're like okay, well, I'm saying I'm getting up late from this rap could be something that I talking about. I'm getting late to this rock and I'm getting late getting set. And they're like okay, cool, what now you set? What do you? What can you remember seeing is? I can just remember seeing that and I like, okay, well, now we've got a pause. Where's the opportunity? What opportunities can you see in the like? I can see a space opening up or I can see that they're a little bit disconnected there and I was like well, the question then goes well, how could you see that? Like, if you were in this position again, how could you?
Speaker 2:I probably need to be a little bit quicker getting off the ground. Why is that? Because I can get moving faster to get set earlier, get set earlier. I can steal a look over there a little bit wider, rather than like shit, I've just set up. Now the balls at me, now I've got a shit, I'm just going to carry. And it's like oh yeah, what were you hearing? I had no comms at all. What was going on? Did you have time to talk to anybody besides? Not at all. It's like, okay, well, that's that's the importance of like getting off the ground right, getting set early, speed to set all that type of stuff. But and then, as a coach like you, then that's where the accountability falls on you. It's like now you've highlighted it, now what are you, as a coach, going to do to help prepare them to be better rather than go? We did it again. It's like, no, you've, you're almost to help that's so, so key.
Speaker 1:How do you okay, we've identified an area and often we've, we've come collaboratively, we've found an area where we want to get better on. Yeah, how, how do then we create the situations that they, they often see in a game? And there's always going to be outliers out there, right. But it's like, how can we, how can we hit the hierarchy, you know, the hierarchy of needs? What are we seeing on every on any given day? Because if you, if you go for everything, it's scattergun, right. It's like, how do we and we kind of use our language and our environment how do we layer on? How do we? How do we layer on from the foundations?
Speaker 1:And, yeah, it's, it's so key, like, just even a little way where you were talking as a coach, there, it's essentially, how do we become proactive? How do we get out of reactive and get into proactive, like, how do we? And then it's the nuances involved in that, and also, even on a game day, dependent on on your environment, like most coaches are on the sideline, you like, even with your very specific positioning, you can't really see what the players are seeing on the north south, look, you know, and vice versa. They can't, they can't necessarily see what you're like when you're like get it wide, like get it wide in there all the way, like what does that mean? You know how? What do it like by kicking doing so? It's just so, so interesting how you're talking about how you get to a stage of identifying something we want to get better at or are doing well, and how do we continue or how do we find an area of improvement.
Speaker 2:And yeah, I think that's the the nuances and the subtlety of coaching right and yeah, it is, and I think it me 10 years ago or like when I first started coaching that's. I'd tell them the answer, like I wouldn't question them through, I wouldn't guide them through that process. I would have told them it's like look, you're too bloody slow getting off of the ground here. Because you're too slow, you can't get set. Now that might not have been, that you was. I always feel I want whoever I'm having a conversation with to leave with, like, their pride intact, or with their confidence intact, like I don't want to take that away from them. I want them to make sure that, like when, whatever conversation that they leave, that they're leaving curious and they're leaving motivated, and if they're not leaving with those those two things, like I've probably messed up as a coach, right?
Speaker 1:because if they're not curious to get better, they're not going to be motivated to get better either, and so I love that so much like and that that is so, that's aspirational, but to every, every single conversation that you have and that you can actually go in in bigger for I can even go in life right, you know what I mean you want. You want people feeling energised after you've had a conversation with them, even. Okay, so here we go. So, for example and I'm just thinking off the top of my head, it's a difficult conversation. Alright, you are, you're not selecting someone for a weekend and it was touching go between player A and player B. You went with player A. How would you go about making them feel curious and motivated in that, in that situation and I know I'm putting you on the spot there, yeah, yeah, um, uh.
Speaker 2:I think that it's funny because when you started talking to talking about that, I go back to a conversation.
Speaker 2:I actually go to a conversation that Steve Hansen that I had with Steve Hansen once and on like it on the podcast here at Kenneby Rugby is he talked around having to pick by the Angus Gardner for the Crusaders or Scott Robinson, and at that stage they're almost going weak about and for Steve, this particular game, his gut feel was to select Razor over Gus, and so his conversation with Gus is like hey, essentially went.
Speaker 2:Hey, gus, look, we're going to go with Scott this week because we feel like in the first half he's going to give us this, this and this, the facts, and then in the second half we're going to bring you on because we feel like at the last part of the game you're going to give us this, this and this. And then Gus the way that Gus did came back with him around like kind of like what your players would do, like oh, like, why could we not do that in the first half? Type stuff. And then Steve just went back to him and was like it's a gut feel, mate, like that's, at the end of the day, like it's a gut feel If around D selection like they are real difficult conversations and I know that coaches kind of shy away from them from from. Like I will just put the team name up and we'll just leave it there and then we'll bugger off and you know they'll have to suck it up.
Speaker 2:My approach January would probably be they'd probably know by the time, like, if I'm coaching the club and we only train Tuesday, thursday, I'll probably know by Thursday that they're going to be coming off the bench or they're not going to be selected at all, because we would have had conversations all the way through the week. And I think if you have those conversations early and if, with them around, like, hey look, this week this is our plan, what do you, what do you reckon Like you'd be, like I can, if they think that you're on the same page. So, for example, I'll think around. I'm thinking back to our Canterbury XV XV team. We essentially picked, selected a squad and we knew that who our 23 was going to be when we went into it. But we just didn't know who was going to be our starters and who was going to come off, going to come off the bench. And so the conversation was we had two half bets One has played for the Crusaders and played MPC and one had just got his MPC contract.
Speaker 2:And so the conversation with we actually started the younger player who hadn't played any MPC or any Super Rugby and said we want you to start the game because we want to play really fast and we want to play on top of them. And he likes to scoot all the time, like he'll pick the ball up at the base of the rack and he'll attack the second, third man, he'll drop somebody off into a hole, he'll get the pods moving and then our 10 is also that we had was also a fast 10. So he liked playing on top of players, like he wouldn't care if we gave him maps or didn't give him maps, he'd just play whatever's in front of him. If there's nobody in front of him, he's running. If there's somebody in front of him, he's attracting and he's dishing. And so we felt those that nine 10 combo would have complimented our style of play. And so the conversation with with with the other player was we want you to do what you do best when you come off the bench. And when you come off the bench like, we want you to be tough on defense because we want we want to close out the game or we want to try and you know, get back into the game, depending on how the game goes we want you to run the ball. We want you to, like, just get the ball in your hands and get out of it as fast, like we want you to show your class. And then, if we need to use your boot, we want you to use your boot because you've probably got a better boot than the other player in your society.
Speaker 2:So that conversation was all like difficult to tell a guy that's played Super Rugby that he's going to be coming off a bench against a guy that hasn't played Super Rugby before. But he, we had those conversations early and slowly, like throughout the week. It'd be like oh, what are you thinking around this? I'm thinking this and this and this and this. And I was like, oh yeah, sweet, what do you? What do you reckon? Like in the second half, if we're down by six, like what do you reckon, what do you reckon we should, we could be doing here, like, like, almost kind of, like he's giving me his answers are going oh yeah, well, I reckon that, like you are definitely going to be the person that's going to ice the game for us, like you're the perfect.
Speaker 2:And so if you're having those conversations slowly, surely by the time it comes to like letting them know that they're either not on the team or they're not starting, whatever, I think, I think that difficult conversation isn't difficult anymore. I just like I understand my role in the team and I think that's the that's the part that maybe we don't talk about enough is like when people want to be a part of the team, they, they want to know that how are they going to contribute to the team? And then if you don't tell them, have that conversation with them early or clear enough that what their purpose is, and if you're a little bit flippant around, like, look, we just think that that person's better than you are and they're just, they're going to have like a little bit of a chip on their shoulder. But if you, if you go, if you lay out the plan, they're going to be like okay, we'll see. I know how I'm going to contribute to the team.
Speaker 2:I'm going to put team first, that all that type of stuff, and then boom away, they go and like again like selection does become a little bit of a gut. It is a bit of a gut feel, bit of like, okay, well, they have this, they have that. But generally, like you can, you can do with whatever you can, with whatever you've got right. Like it's not, it's not really, and it's everything's kind of subjective around selection as well. But if you we go back to that detail if you detailed enough and you clear enough of the messaging and your conversations, you have them early enough. They're not going to be difficult conversations, they're just going to be conversations.
Speaker 1:So right, and it's all about also the strength of relationship. Have you, have you manufactured across the years or the time you've been working with the individuals? Have you manufactured? Well, not manufactured is probably one word. Have you created a genuine relationship? And that doesn't mean it has to be huggy huggy or everything. It means to be a respectful working relationship.
Speaker 1:And also another way that I've found which has helped me most recently, is go, look, I'm not asking you to like the decision. I'm asking you to understand where it's coming from and provide the rationale and also then going. But this is the important role that you have in this, in this team, and making it a bit more about like how they can contribute, as opposed to how the other person is going to contribute. Like, as I say look, this is, this is their strength. I'm picking them because this is all be like look, I'm, this is about you. I want you to start because of this or I want you to fight, to start next week because of this. Like, giving it back to them as opposed to directly pitting them against each other. Now, competition's healthy, but you don't want to. You don't want to have like, as you said, the chip on your shovel direct. You need a respectful, then healthy, competition, but not like a resentful one, which is which I've always found really interesting as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, we talk. Probably one of my, one of my mentors, manon Field Johnson, talks around being competitive but not being competitive. Like you want to be competitive with them but you don't want to be competitive. Like you, you're playing for the same team, we're one team. We're like we talk around brotherhoods and all that type of stuff and as soon as you become combative, or as soon as players become combative, then, like things start leaking into, like your team culture.
Speaker 2:And if you spent so much time establishing the team culture and what you said was perfect around, like have you built the relationship? Have you created an environment where, like you can have like honest conversations, truthful conversations? Like if you've got that set, then competitiveness is probably at that part is around just holding people accountable. Like I've watched when I spent some time over in the UK watched Saracen's train and then I was watching RLFL and like he's just going absolutely berserk at players and telling them it's just like you're supposed to be an England player and this and that, and you're just like, holy heck, like he is like going at it, but it's like he's not doing it in a way around like you're a terrible person, you're a terrible player.
Speaker 2:He's going like it's coming off as like no, if we want to win this game, our standard has to be better. You can't run a line like the line that you just ran, because if you do that you're going to get tackled, or if you do that we're going to turn the ball over. He's, he's going. You just have to be better, like we need as a group. We need to be better. I'm not doing everything perfect for you to mess it up Like and you're like holy heck, and you see it like if you watch and you probably would have been and he's like seeing that happen at Yale a number of times around players just getting like the competitive frustrations of like I know you can do better. Why aren't you being better? Like what is going on?
Speaker 1:Yeah, we have a really interesting environment at Yale because everyone who's came in it's probably very similar to to you guys in terms of prospects, coming into Canterbury and then the cream rising to to, up to the Crusaders and obviously ultimately be all blacks. So our environment is made of people who are used to being excellent in their, in their initial environments for example, high school and all that they are number one, they are the best, they are the rock star. And then when you come into Yale, hang on a minute, everyone's a bit of a rock star. You know what I mean. Everyone's excellent.
Speaker 1:And then it becomes a bit of that that the initial few weeks is like the initial scramble to to who can get to the top and, interestingly, as well it can. It can spook people because they're like, well, hang on. And then it becomes kind of keeping up with the Joneses. You know like you lose your authenticity a little bit or your confidence has been knocked a bit and we actually find people over compensating a little bit in our environment and we we actually go, feel free to make a mistake. It's okay.
Speaker 1:Our job here is to help you get better, because not many of them have played rugby before. That's a unique nature of of American colleges, particularly Yale, like a lot of them are new to rugby, but they want to be the best instantly and it's like well, hang on, there's processes we're going to build and we're going to help you, help you get there and it's yeah, it's just managing those real competitive urges, while some people are like, oh, this is way more than I bargained for, because everyone's good and I used to be the best. How do we get their confidence back? You know, it's such a and then it comes down to just working as a team. But it's the crucial. Crucial thing is the individuals in the team. How do you, how do you connect with them so they become the best version of themselves?
Speaker 2:And I think that's probably one of the biggest lessons that I learned. Like I spent a lot of time at Sumner Rugby, which is Ray's Robinson's local club, and like just talking to him and he's like if you get the players' heart, you get their mind, and you're just like, wow, like how powerful is that? You have to, like you have to know the person before you know the performer. Like if you don't know the person, you don't know the performer. And then I think is it John O'Sullivan's book Every Moment Matters. Like he talks around, like behind every player as a person, behind any of your person as a story, and like if you don't know what that person's story is. Like why are you playing rugby? Like what do you love about rugby? Like what motivates you? What gets you ticking? Like, for your example, like why did you choose Yale instead of Duke? Why did you like? Or Harvard or whatever? Like well, I wanted to. You know mum and dad came to Yale. This is where they meet. So this is like family and you just like, OK, so family is really important to you, yeah, yeah, like my mum and dad are everything and you know me coming here is like a kind of I want to give back to them. I want to give back to like what the like it's always been a dream to play for Yale or whatever it is. And you're like awesome, so now you understand who the, now you understand the story, you understand the person is like OK, well, tell me a bit more around. Like where do you want to get to? Like what is like? Sky's the limit, blue sky thinking. And they're like well, you know, I want to play for playing the MLR, to try and get into the Eagles. And like oh, so you want to be playful, represent your, your country. What would that mean? And be like oh, that just mean everything to me. To like represent the my country to play in the World Cup, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2:And you're just like so now you, now you know the drivers, now you know who's driving them, who's motivating them. Now you kind of tapped into them. And so when you know their story and who the person is, the conversations aren't become a little bit more deeper rather than small talk. So we're having conversations around like oh, when was the last time like, when was the last time you saw mum and dad? I haven't seen him for a week. I was like I've actually noticed that you've been down a little bit Like when did you last talk to them? They're like I haven't talked to them.
Speaker 2:So after training, make sure you flip mum or dad a text or try and jump on a race home with them and stuff like that and let them know what you've been up to and like just those types of things, and then like constantly checking in on them. Because as soon as you do that, soon as you show them that you care as a from a coaching point of view, then like you've, you've got them, like you've got that whole trust is like completely built up to go All right. Now, when we have those these conversations around hey look, I'm not selecting you this week and here's, here's a couple of reasons why. And it's just like you know, you're a little bit sloth getting off the rack and I'm like oh yeah, I've got a knee injury. I was like you need to tell me about these, like these injuries. So let's get you sorted, we'll give you, you're going to get your 20 minutes and these are the things that I need you to get through in these 20 minutes. And then all of a sudden they're like oh sweet, once, once I can see these. Let's map this out what these look like. Boom, boom. Let's try and get you into a state where you're competing to get that that number seven jersey back, or whoever it is, and they're like oh yeah, sweet. So now you've got like it.
Speaker 2:But you have to like. Your integrity as a coach really matters in these moments. That's where you actually have to follow up with what you're doing, looking to either your medical staff or you're talking to your forwards coach or your breakdown coach and be like hey, look, you need to work on. They need to work on like, getting over the ball, getting the head right over the ball, because I've been a little bit tentative, that's kind of stretching out, not actually going full noise. Get them right in the bull and I, yeah, sweet. And then I think that's where you've you've created a really safe environment for one player. If you can do that for your squad of I know, say, 30 and it doesn't have to be you as the coach, you can do them out across your coaching group but if you can create that everybody feels comfortable and safe, then you've got a really awesome environment. And I think this is what's great.
Speaker 2:Around our Canterbury environments and our Crusaders environments is like the person always comes first. Like anything. Like if the person's not OK, like they'll do everything they can to make sure the person's OK. Like is it skill sessions? Do they need to talk to someone? Do they need a nutritionist? Do they need a new gym plan? Do they just need a week off to go down to Queenstown and spend time with their family? Do they need to have mum and dad at the game? Like what is it that this person needs to be performing at their very best? Versus the other side of thing, where you just be like look, you haven't given us a turn over for three games. Like catch you later. Yeah, then what have you got? You haven't. You probably don't have a plan next year or the next three games, because I'll just like well, stuff, this, I'm done.
Speaker 1:So there's some so much good, good stuff in there, like, absolutely brilliant. It's actually just what you're saying. It reminds me when I was watching the Chicago Bulls documentary recently and the coach's understanding that Dennis Rodman needed to go away to Vegas for a few days to let off steam. Now would he have let that do to anyone? Probably not, but he had to go and let him go away, do his thing as an individual to come back and ultimately help the team. That's obviously one of the more extreme examples, but that can happen.
Speaker 1:Like why don't you just take like I have it regularly Like why don't you just take this session off, get your schoolwork done? Your schoolwork's adding up, you're under pressure and like, if you're under, we talk about having the buckets all equally full from rugby, academics, social life, extra curriculars. How do we get them level? And sometimes rugby is the one to go and they're a bit shocked as a rugby coach telling them that rugby's got to drop off. Like they're like whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm like no, but look, it's fine, and it kind of it really hit me Like I often use the saying there when you were just talking through conversations with coaches around with players my best coaching happens in a coffee shop. It really does, because that's where you're, away from the field, you can have a one-on-one conversation. It's not often about rugby that normally gets around to it, but you're just building that rapport, that genuine rapport with people, and you get to understand where you're at. Our coach academics is really, really piling up right now.
Speaker 1:Okay, why? Okay, yeah, maybe I've been going out three times this week. You know what I mean and it's been affecting me and I was like all right, well, here's a plan to help you get better. You know so, sometimes you can be good cop, bad cop, big brother, little brother. You know what I mean. It's just, it's just using the right tools for the right time. But you can't do that if you don't have a rapport or a relationship with with any given individual. And essentially that's what you're trying to do, right. You're trying to make better people and rugby. The byproduct is usually a better rugby player.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think you're you've definitely hit the nail on the head there because, yeah, it's. That was like such a cool lesson, because we're so far now removed from like that post-war mentality of like here's a team, we're going to drill you, you're going to work as a unit. I'm going to tell you because I'm the commander, you're the, you're the privates you're going to have to do, you're the grants, you're going to have to do what I tell you. We're so far removed to that now, to like that's not performance anymore. Like even like the researchers say on the show, like even like they have sales, or like elite forces or mission critical forces, like they have. Each of them have their own individual plans. It's not one size fits all, because not one person is the same. Like even twins have different Get around their personalities and who's who and whatever it is, and it's just like well, if you don't understand the person, you're never going to understand the player, and that's probably. Yeah, that's definitely one of the best lessons that I've learned from from Razor is that, like, if you get that right, like the rugby is going to take care of itself. Like it will ultimately take care of itself. And you've seen like the Crusaders have done, what 17 and seven in a row with like literally that, that feel and that vibe I think behind you you can see like the chips, that love that we've won here for Canterbury with our national competition here.
Speaker 2:Like it is around that that a lot of it talking to the coaches, like the Wayesmiths, the Steve Hansons, the Gris Wiley's, the Robbie Deans around like what made your teams such great teams? And they say, like it is, it comes down to the fact that they cared about their players. They gave their players enough freedom around like or ownership around their game, what they wanted their team like, what do you want from your team? And then they just put the infrastructure around them to make and to support them to be like sweet. Well, our role here is to help you to be at your best. And what does that? What does that mean? Like Wayesmiths brought in Gilbert Hinokia to like as a mental skills coach and like when mental skills being a mental skills coach like wasn't even like a thing. Like it People thought it was who do or something you know, yeah exactly and it was just like, but the players needed.
Speaker 2:he Wayne thought that the players need to understand like the difference around, like understanding pressure a little bit differently or being able to speak openly to someone that isn't their coach. And yeah, I think, yeah, this is like I know that the pods around like what are some failures? But like constantly, if you're not failing as a coach, you're not growing or learning as a coach. Like you have to go into that like that learning pit of like constantly stretching yourself to like fail, to like learn something, because you can't constantly keep growing, getting better and getting better and getting better If you're not like down in the troughs trying to dig your way out of it.
Speaker 1:I had an interest in just doing this podcast that one of the coaches said fail up, fail up, fail, but like, how do you get up from after it? And I thought that was a really cool little concept. Now, look, you've had a wealth of experience in your time and obviously you're in and around on a daily basis not only just your immediate vibrant, but New Zealand in general some amazing coaches and some of amazing resources but where do you go to find some of your learnings, for example, books or podcasts that you some just ideas to share with with for listeners that they can go off and maybe have a little? Have a think about? My library is extensive.
Speaker 2:Like reading, is huge for me and, like we talked about at the start of it, just got an eight month old, so I haven't had a chip, don't. I'm not as blessed as what I used to be when I was just had the 15 and 10 year old where I could sit down and spend an hour or two just reading. So audio book audio books have been like a gift from the heavens for me this year. But, yeah, reading's been huge and I think, like I think I've had a lot of experience in my life Like it doesn't constantly have to be like autobiographies or like reading around the best coaches, where you get the best ideas or the most curiosity around, like how can you apply this to that? And I think, like the breadth of knowledge if you've got a wide breadth of knowledge, you kind of start having like this global understanding of like how things could fit into coaching and so like one of like a great book to read would be like David Epstein range, like that is there would be an epic book like coaches book. That's not even about coaching but it's understanding around. Like having a better understanding of a range of knowledge can actually improve the way that you think I've read a lot of Adam Grant's work around, like Think Again is like a favorite book of mine. Just like constantly rethinking your ideas and you don't have to change your mind. But like, why do you always like, why can't you change your mind? Like, if you want to play like a for a coach, if you like, I just want to play one, three, three, one, because you get this, this and this. Like if you're doing something that everything's, everybody's doing, like how do you innovate? Like how do you do things a little bit differently? Like you're going to have to rethink your shape going. Actually, maybe I might play a one, five, two. Like maybe that might be a little bit of a better shape for us with the, the caliber of players.
Speaker 2:And so like thinking through critically, thinking through your ideas, podcasts, like you can't go past the high performance podcast. Like the types of guests that they get on with the level of knowledge and experience they have. Like knowing Damien, like he's even his books at Epic as well. But, yeah, the way that they ask questions is also amazing. And then I think the. But if I did go like three books that coaches probably should read, one would probably Gary Cronin's book, gary Klein's, sources of power, understanding decision making a lot to help you understand decision making a lot better. That was I think that's such an awesome book Motivational interviewing I can't the titles skip my mind or what it is, but yeah, there's a book around motivational interviewing and how it works on coaching and that just helps you ask questions like better questions, because I think if you don't ask better questions as a coach, you're not going to get good answers and that's what you want to try and to do.
Speaker 2:So that's a good book. And yet Adams book at Think Again, like if you read that you're going to you're like I'm not going to say you're going to understand coaching a lot better, but your mind's definitely going to get a lot more curious around it. And I think that's the key to being, or one of the keys to being, a good coach is being a curious coach. If you're not curious, then you're not going to learn.
Speaker 1:Brilliant. Hey look, Ricky, so many bits of gold in there. I think we could have went on for another couple of hours for sure. So I just want to say a huge, huge thank you for sharing some of your knowledge, but also being vulnerable in there and sharing some of the stuff which was sometimes a little bit harder. I think it's good for people to hear, and also, people aren't on their own, so I just want to say a big thank you. My man and I look forward to connecting sometime soon.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely no, it's been a real pleasure having this conversation and I think you're right. I think the more that we can share our failures, the better coaches, or more that we open up about our failures, the more coaches will be willing to actually open up about their own failures and to be vulnerable a little bit more and explore them a little bit more. So this has been an awesome conversation.
Speaker 1:Brilliant. Thanks very much, my man, no worries.